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I have made a list of 8 bit home computers which are the best (IMHO) with some feature.

Amstrad CPC - the best pixel based graphics
Amstrad PCW - the best CP/M computer
Amstrad PCW - the best text processor
BBC Micro and Commodore 128 VDC - the best speed of calculation with screen on
Commodore 64 - the best sound and graphics combined quality
Commodore +4/PAL - the best speed of calculation with screen off
Commodore +4 - the best quality of static graphics

Any additions? Atari 800 has 256 colors but I don't know good Atari pictures. Are there any Atari 800 good pictures somewhere?

Thomson TO8 - Has all the Amstrad CPC video modes, plus a 320x200 16 colors mode (with 8x1 block constraints), and a 4096 color palette. Beats the CPC easily on best pixel based graphics, except there is no "fullscreen" trick.


Then it depends on what your definition of "home computer" is. The v6z80P would be bast calculation speed (25MHz z80 CPU I think?), and also best static graphics and best combined sound/graphics (it looks more like an Amiga), but it is not a computer from the "golden days".


I don't see why the PCW would be the best CP/M computer. In the days of CP/M you could build anything around the S-100 bus standard, and include megabytes of RAM, hard disks, and a lot more.


Atari graphics: https://demozoo.org/graphics/?platform=16&production_type=

Then a Tandy CoCo3 is even better for his 320x200 16 color mode without restrictions. Palette is much smaller, to be honest.


Regarding atari pictures, take a look here (http://gury.atari8.info/pictures.php).

Quote from: PulkoMandy on 16:01, 09 January 17
Thomson TO8 - Has all the Amstrad CPC video modes, plus a 320x200 16 colors mode (with 8x1 block constraints), and a 4096 color palette. Beats the CPC easily on best pixel based graphics, except there is no "fullscreen" trick.

I don't see why the PCW would be the best CP/M computer. In the days of CP/M you could build anything around the S-100 bus standard, and include megabytes of RAM, hard disks, and a lot more.

I didn't list rare and expanded computers.  All listed computers were produced in a large number, at least one million.  The problem with the rare models is in absence of programs demonstrating their features...  Could you name any model of CP/M computer which ran CP/M+, had more than 256 KB of RAM, had 720x200 graphics, and was mass produced and affordable for home use?

Quote from: robcfg on 16:07, 09 January 17
Then a Tandy CoCo3 is even better for his 320x200 16 color mode without restrictions. Palette is much smaller, to be honest.

Wikipedia says that Tandy CoCo3 has 64 colors in palette.  This is more than 27 of CPC.  However we don't even know how many Tandy Color were made. :( Is there any demo which can be compared with Batman Forever?
Thanks to all for the links to Atari pictures.  They look good but the quality of graphics is not too impressive.  IMHO C+4 shows much better results - http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/VDC_Challenge (http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/VDC_Challenge)

Quote from: litwr on 15:33, 09 January 17
Any additions? Atari 800 has 256 colors but I don't know good Atari pictures. Are there any Atari 800 good pictures somewhere?

16 shades of 16 colours, with all sorts of insane restrictions upon how you can actually use them. With the possible exception of "most colours on screen in a gradient grid pattern", it probably loses out to everything. Even the Speccy.

I think that trying to get actual photographs on screen loses artistic value. That's what I like of the linked Atari pictures.


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The CoCo was somewhat popular, spawning 3 generations; some sources mention 1.3 million units sold. Others say 1.5+ million for all TSR-80 models, so I don't know if that 1.3 is too much.

The CoCo 3 was a very capable machine (up to 512K!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzyxSX1jLU

I think that by playing with composite output you can get 256 colors on a CoCo3.

Then there are the MSX2+ and TurboR machines, which are able to display an insane amount of colors.


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That's right, MSX2+ are still Z80 based and 8-bit. The MSX2 had a 256 colour mode already.

I always think of the MSX1 and I never remember the later standards!

It's very difficult to make a list like that without having tried all 8-bit computers, so I'll assume that the list is "best 8 bit computers that I've used". You've completely left out the Atari's for example. Is this because they weren't best at anything or because you've never had one?

Bryce.

How about sam coupe?


hhmmm a list? OK

ZX is cute,
atari has pokey!!!
commodore for the arcade feeling...
and amstrad number one cause that's way I like it. Aha aha.

Asking what is the best 8-bit computer is like asking what's the best car. There are so many variables. I can say that no 8-bit computer wins outright. There are many 8-bit losers (specification wise) but no outright winner.

They all had their benefits,

Spectrum was cheap, so available to everyone!
Commodore had good music, hardware sprites, and some great games.
Amstrad CPC had the great 16 color mode 0, 4 color mode 1 (without the "color block" limitation of other systems)... it also had the dreaded 'speccy ports!' which meant many of its games were utterly awful!

I only had the CPC in the day, but I knew people with all 3, back then I think you were lucky if you had any home computer!

Quote from: PulkoMandy on 16:01, 09 January 17
I don't see why the PCW would be the best CP/M computer. In the days of CP/M you could build anything around the S-100 bus standard, and include megabytes of RAM, hard disks, and a lot more.

Like the PCW!


:) :)


Now, seriously: the best 8 bit home computer is mine (it's an expanded PCW8256, by the way).

i remember i like my CPC since the begining mostly because there is a HUGE amount of softwares  8)


i liked my TO7-70 because the user manual was VERY didactic (better than CPC manuel which is nevertheless very good). I learned a lot about Basic with it

I liked the Oric 1 because.... Oh wait, it did nothing even half decently, but it looked cool. :)

Bryce.

I still want an MSX2+.

I believe that with the added scroll registers, the amount of colours, midi inputs/outputs along with those 6 music channels - games made to it's potential would be mind blowing.

Saying that though - there's still so much progress being made on the CPC that probably weren't thought possible.

Have anyone seen sales numbers for the Sam Coupe, MSX2 and Amstrad plus/GX4000. I assume the first and only batch of Amstrad pluses/GX with were several hundredthousands machines.

Retro Gamer issue 52 said 15,000 units of GX4000 were sold. Not sure how accurate is that.

I also find the MSX quite interesting. Shame most non-Japanese games weren't great, another machine that suffered from crap speccy ports.

Quote from: sigh on 11:24, 10 January 17
I still want an MSX2+.

midi inputs/outputs along with those 6 music channels - games made to it's potential would be mind blowing.

I have the Panasonic FS-A1WX and it doesn't have any midi ports.
You can easily add them with a music module though.


I'd also would love to see what could happen on an MSX2+ if properly used.

Quote from: reidrac on 12:11, 10 January 17
Retro Gamer issue 52 said 15,000 units of GX4000 were sold. Not sure how accurate is that.

I also found the MSX quite interesting. Shame most non-Japanese games weren't great, another machine that suffered from crap speccy ports.

Although I know nothing about this, I would guess that this number is very low. I wonder what their sources are.
Amstrad had a very high marketing budget for the GX4000. Was it 15 million pounds? For me it sounds strange not to have produced more machines having spent so much on marketing. In the period leading up to Christmas 1984 they sold 200 000 Amstrad CPC 464s

Quote from: litwr on 15:33, 09 January 17
I have made a list of 8 bit home computers which are the best (IMHO) with some feature.

Amstrad CPC - the best pixel based graphics
Commodore 64 - the best sound and graphics combined quality
Commodore +4 - the best quality of static graphics

Considering recent output from Targhan and Rhino with improved graphicmodes with more colour at higher resolution, I think the Amstrad CPC should be considered for all these 3 categories

I agree that Tandy Color 3 is capable.  But it is rare.  How many programs are in software list especially for CoCo 3?  King Quest II for Tandy shows good but almost static pictures.  I didn't note any sound. :( It looks like C64 graphics with only one or two sprites and a bit more colorful.  However I could name CoCo 3 as the best 8-bit computer for King's Quest II.
MSX2+ and turboR are Japanese rarities.  They have too little software which uses their advanced features. The same is true for Amstrad CPC6128+, Sam Coupe, and other 8-bit computers after 1987.
Theoretically MSX2 can be better than C64, C+4 or Amstrad CPC.  But practically I don't know MSX2 games which are superior to C64 games.  C64 sound is better than even MSX2+ sound.  I also don't know photo graphics shown by MSX2 system which are better than C+4 pictures.  Is MSX2 capable to run a game like CPC6128 Pinball?
I agree that ZX Spektrum deserved to be the best by the best price.
It is also worth to mention that BBC Micro has built-in network support and it makes it the best for this feature.

Quote from: Bryce on 21:36, 09 January 17
It's very difficult to make a list like that without having tried all 8-bit computers, so I'll assume that the list is "best 8 bit computers that I've used". You've completely left out the Atari's for example. Is this because they weren't best at anything or because you've never had one?

I met Atari at the 80s.  It didn't impressed me much.  Just yet another 8-bit computer, a bit better than ZX Spektrum.  Do you name any Atari 800 feature that makes it the best?

Quote from: ivarf on 12:19, 10 January 17
Considering recent output from Targhan and Rhino with improved graphicmodes with more colour at higher resolution, I think the Amstrad CPC should be considered for all these 3 categories

I hope to see CPC6128 showing pictures better than Commodore +4, with sound better than C64 and with the fast hardware sprites.  :D

The Pokey was a pretty good sound chip. Also I liked the Atari XL for how easy it was to interface to.

The CPC also should be nominated for the fastest disk drive of the time.

I'd also like to nominate the Spectrum ZX81 as the best kit computer and best black and white computer :)

Bryce.

CPC was the most "professional" 8bit computer along side with the PCW series, although CPC was the fav.
Here it was used to many video clubs, lotto - gambling stores, schools and even in small companies.
The keyboard is almost perfect and probably not like acorn quality but the layout was the best I think.
Imagine keeping your files with a ZX...


The last CPC I saw was 4-5 years ago still kicking in Athens.


I agree with Bryce about the ZX81.

As I have come from a TRS-80 Model 1-3-4-4P world across to the Amstrad World.
I have great fondness for the TRS-80 series.


Ray

Quote from: ASiC on 12:15, 10 January 17

I have the Panasonic FS-A1WX and it doesn't have any midi ports.
You can easily add them with a music module though.


I'd also would love to see what could happen on an MSX2+ if properly used.

Ahh yes - it was the MSX R turbo that had the midi in/out on some models.

The MSX2+ machine was never used to it's full potential, much like the 6128 PLUS back then.
Wasn't the Sam Coupe ham strung by some odd design choices limiting it's power?

Quote from: ivarf on 12:04, 10 January 17
I assume the first and only batch of Amstrad pluses/GX with were several hundredthousands machines.

I think there are 6 or so revisions of the motherboard for the Amstrad Plus. The batches were smaller than you expect.

Quote from: sigh on 01:55, 11 January 17
Ahh yes - it was the MSX R turbo that had the midi in/out on some models.

The MSX2+ machine was never used to it's full potential, much like the 6128 PLUS back then.
Wasn't the Sam Coupe ham strung by some odd design choices limiting it's power?

I think the main issue with the Sam Coupe is the shared memory pool.
Same as the CPC but it was more severe on the Sam resulting in an effective CPU speed of only 14% faster than the speccy.
Also considering that the Sam had to push more pixels than the speccy, that percentage went down even further.

Quote from: ASiC on 09:49, 11 January 17

I think the main issue with the Sam Coupe is the shared memory pool.
Same as the CPC but it was more severe on the Sam resulting in an effective CPU speed of only 14% faster than the speccy.
Also considering that the Sam had to push more pixels than the speccy, that percentage went down even further.

6 MHz Z80 isn't it?

Quote from: ivarf on 11:35, 11 January 17
6 MHz Z80 isn't it?

Yes but the effective speed is much slower because of the wait states being enforced by the ASIC chip.
Same as the CPC: 4MHz CPU speed, effective speed ~3.54 MHz

CPC/PCW effective speed is about 3.2 MHz.  So old Speccy which uses upper memory only is 10% faster.  ZX Spectrum effective speed is about 2.9 MHz with lower memory in use.  CPC/PCW is slightly faster on the average.  :) 

Quote from: ASiC on 09:49, 11 January 17
Also considering that the Sam had to push more pixels than the speccy, that percentage went down even further.

Worse still, it was designed so that as you switch into screen modes that use less memory, contention goes up and slows the CPU down (the aim being to increase compatibility with Spectrum games) so you can't even use one of the less memory intensive screen modes to make things better.


Rumour has it that hardware scrolling was considered for the design but dropped because it would've added about £2 a unit to the cost price. Bad, bad decision if true...

Why the Amstrad CPC was best in the 'general 80s 8-bit computing' category, in my opinion:


* It came with a monitor - no need to hog the family TV
* Graphics were decent, especially static images, some categories of games were excellent, but high memory requirement and lack of smooth scrolling held back many cross-platform titles
* Good range of business software because of CP/M and 80 column mode
* Also productivity software - you could reasonably do your homework on the machine with Amsword/Tasword II/Mini Office 2
* Excellent value for a CP/M machine
* Decent amount of RAM, expansion options
* Late 80s it came with a TV Tuner box, solving the teenager's bedroom needs


Runner Up: Commodore 128


Best Gaming 8-bitter: Commodore 64 - SID, Hardware scrolling and sprites, massive market meant lots of titles, and it came out 2 years before the CPC. Terrible disk interface.
Oddly enough it had some decent business/productivity software due to the market size, but the lack of 80 columns and low contrast interfaces was a negative.
Also Best Audio because of SID, apart from some boutique systems (Apple IIGS for example).


Best Value 8-bitter: Sinclair/Amstrad Spectrum Range
But graphics could be terrible unless skilfully designed, where detail, designing for the hardware, and good use of splash colour could be a nice benefit. Palette very garish - C64 hi-res attribute mode could look a lot nicer.


Best Business 8-bitter: Amstrad PCW by a mile - it redefined the marketplace. Apple II does need to be mentioned here, because it was a lot earlier, and Visicalc created the spreadsheet. The Apple II would win if I was thinking from a US perspective.


The Atari 8-bitters were strong machines, although the games tended to rarely utilise the hardware to the full, meaning they looked bland. Often 4-colour in MODE 0 aspect ratio with some sprites. They were also costly. Atari 130XE was the pinnacle.


MSX1 was a worldwide system, but had many of the Spectrum's issues but with a TI graphics chip that at least had sprites. Coarser scrolling than the CPC! Many solid games due to Japanese involvement, but not a massive hit in the UK. Some systems were quite unique though - some with synths, some with laser discs... maybe I can award it Best International System or something, although C64 is a strong competitor.


Best Educational System: BBC Micro by far, but the RM Link 380/480 systems were strong early on too. Costly though.


What else sold in the millions?


Much as I love the CPC+, it's too niche, and too late, to be a fair addition, and lack of software rules it out.
Ditto for the Sam Coupe, Z88, etc.
Enterprise 64 had strong hardware, but the sales failed (launched too late). Unique design though, but cursors would have been better in the end. Maybe if they'd used a 6MHz Z80...

If we're talking Sam Coupe, why not mention the Elan Flan Enterprise?


I also agree that 15k units for the GX sounds very low. Maybe it was 15k before Amstrad abandoned it, but I guess all the units they produced didn't end up in a landfill but were instead sold out at rock-bottom prices!

Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 21:32, 11 January 17
Also Best Audio because of SID, apart from some boutique systems (Apple IIGS for example).

Best Business 8-bitter: Amstrad PCW by a mile - it redefined the marketplace. Apple II does need to be mentioned here, because it was a lot earlier, and Visicalc created the spreadsheet. The Apple II would win if I was thinking from a US perspective.

Best Educational System: BBC Micro by far, but the RM Link 380/480 systems were strong early on too. Costly though.

IIGS is 16-bit, the other league. ;) Unexpanded Apple ][ couldn't match even CPC6128 for business.  May TRS-80 be compared with PCW?  I know little about TRS-80. :(
Apple ][ has a lot of software for education.  It was also the main computer in SU schools (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agat_(computer) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agat_(computer))).  So Apple ][ has a kind of a position close the the best but I can't clear define it.  Apple ][ is also the most expandable among the other 8-bitters.

I would like to propose the Matra Alice 90 for most beautiful case design


(http://www.old-computers.com/museum/photos/matra_alice90_1_hr_s.jpg)


Can anything else matter when you have such a nice case?  :laugh:

And where do you leave the Memotech computers????


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

Quote from: litwr on 15:25, 10 January 17
I hope to see CPC6128 showing pictures better than Commodore +4, with sound better than C64 and with the fast hardware sprites.  :D

See Rhinos earlier post about the "new" graphics capabilities of the Amstrad CPC series. I never meant that the chip sound is better on the Amstrad than the C64, just that the combined sound/graphics are better now.

Quote from: Rhino on 13:21, 16 July 16
Hi,

I'm proud to present Perfect Pix, a set of graphic tools with 3 extended video modes to get images of an unusual quality on a 8-bit machine:

* Mode R -> Up to 384x272 pixels and 16 freely selectable colors from a palette of 27.

* Mode B0 -> Up to 192x272 pixels and 136 colors from a palette of 378.

* Mode B1 -> Up to 384x272 pixels and 307 colors, divided into color 0 + up to 34 palettes of 9 colors per line.

You must run the tool on real hardware to see the true visual result.


(http://www.joycogames.com/download/ppix/c_forums.jpg)


Perfect Pix by Batman Group :: pouët.net


Updates:

* v1.00

    - First release.

* v1.01

    - Added message if upper memory is full by too many ROMs.

* v1.02

    - Bug fixed in the converter exporting overscan screens.
    - More upper memory free for greater ROMs compatibility.

* v1.03

    - Improved controls in Paint tool by adding CONTROL + keys to move the pointer to scroll the zoom window (similar to OCP Art Studio).
    - Added warning message in the converter when source image exceeds the image size limits managed with the Paint tool.
    - Additional upper memory free for greater ROMs compatibility.

Have you seen the FLI, IFLI, ... modes that the C64 had for years? Because, they are quite similar.


http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm

Thanks for the link to Perfect Pix.  It looks magnificent!  However after checking the manual I got some doubts.  Mode B0 uses an easy trick available with any computer.  So Plus4 with 121 colors may easily get several thousands colors this way.  Mode R uses interlace which is unstable with CPC.  Mode B1 is based on 4 colors mode 1 which doesn't allow to be too colorful. So it will be uneasy to win Plus4...

Quote from: PulkoMandy on 08:55, 13 January 17
Have you seen the FLI, IFLI, ... modes that the C64 had for years? Because, they are quite similar.


http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm (http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm)

Yes it looks nice, but you do get the full effect due to the limited C64 palette

Quote from: ivarf on 09:55, 13 January 17
Yes it looks nice, but you do get the full effect due to the limited C64 palette

C+4 has 121 colors and more advanced FLI modes than C64.

Quote from: litwr on 16:38, 13 January 17
C+4 has 121 colors and more advanced FLI modes than C64.

Do anyone know how the CPC 464 got it's number?  What is its connection with the plus/4?

Quote from: litwr on 16:38, 13 January 17
C+4 has 121 colors and more advanced FLI modes than C64.

121 colors is a bit of a lie though, it's actually 8 luminance values for 15 different colour (plus black). Like the 8-bit Atari's, the value of this is somewhat questionable and you get a much worse range of colour choice than, for example, the 128 colours on the Sam Coupe.

Quote from: andycadley on 19:00, 13 January 17
121 colors is a bit of a lie though, it's actually 16 luminance values for 15 different colour (plus black). Like the 8-bit Atari's, the value of this is somewhat questionable and you get a much worse range of colour choice than, for example, the 128 colours on the Sam Coupe.

If the 16 colours is based on the C64s palette, it should be excellent for skin colours and stones

Quote from: ivarf on 19:06, 13 January 17
If the 16 colours is based on the C64s palette, it should be excellent for skin colours and stones

Did you miss the link above?
http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/VDC_Challenge (http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/VDC_Challenge)
I can also point to my old demo -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4sWBcjr--k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4sWBcjr--k).

Reminds me of MCGA. Thumbs up! :)

Thanks. :) I may also point to another demo, it should impress everybody. It uses a simple mod.  However the sound is not fair, it is external. :( IMHO it maybe 4-bit digital sound which is easy to use with plus4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cSbjXAFvDg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cSbjXAFvDg)

Quote from: ivarf on 18:25, 13 January 17
Do anyone know how the CPC 464 got it's number?  What is its connection with the plus/4?

The plus/4 was codenamed 264 under production, Commodore had another machine under development as well, the 364. Amstrad wanted to be better and the name 464 was born.

Quote from: ivarf on 07:59, 15 January 17
The plus/4 was codenamed 264 under production, Commodore had another machine under development as well, the 364. Amstrad wanted to be better and the name 464 was born.

Is that actually true?

I read it somewhere, maybe Amstrad User or Amstrad Action

Quote from: litwr on 09:39, 13 January 17
Mode R uses interlace which is unstable with CPC.

This is not true anymore.


Grimmy studied in details the video circuits and found a way to generate a proper interlace signal. The trick involves generating a 32us line from the CRTC with an HSync at the end of it, at the start of odd fields, and at the end of even ones. With this the interlace works perfectly. There are at least two demo pictures from Grim using this, and some from Dadman which I think were never released.


Picture using interlace: https://demozoo.org/graphics/98498/

Quote from: litwr on 20:23, 13 January 17
Did you miss the link above?
http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/VDC_Challenge (http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/VDC_Challenge)
I can also point to my old demo -

Impressive stuff. I don't know much about the Plus 4, other than I remember briefly playing on one around a friends house back in around 1990 (I think the game was Back to the future III). Just looking at the palette on Wikipedia, it looks like it's missing a true red? Is that right?

I've a Plus/4. Great little computer and the best looking Commodore in my opinion.

Bryce.

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:31, 15 January 17

Is that actually true?

Below is some information from the Plus/4 Wikipedia. It doesn't confirm the story, but it confirms Commodores planned naming of the 264 and 364 and the release date of the 264 which by then had its name changed to plus/4. It was released at the same time as the Amstrad CPC 464. See below:


"Rumors spread in late 1983 of a new computer in 1984 called the "Commodore 444" or "Ted", with built-in word processing and spreadsheet software, and that it would be one of four new computers that would replace the VIC-20 and 64, which the company would discontinue.[4][5] The company's third salvo – which, as it turned out, was fired just as most of Commodore's competition was leaving the home computer market – was the C116, C16, and 264, which became the Plus/4. There were also prototypes of a 232, basically a 32 KB version of the Plus/4 without the software ROMs, and a V364 which had a numeric keypad and built-in voice synthesis. The latter two models never made it to production."

"The Plus/4 was introduced in June 1984 and priced at US$299 (equivalent to $689.27 in 2016). It was discontinued in 1985. "

Quote from: litwr on 15:33, 09 January 17
I have made a list of 8 bit home computers which are the best (IMHO) with some feature.

BBC Micro and Commodore 128 VDC - the best speed of calculation with screen on
Commodore +4/PAL - the best speed of calculation with screen off

I assume you mean in machine code and not Basic. The BBC surely is faster than the Commodore machines when calculating in Basic.

What makes you say that plus/4 is faster than the Commodore 128 and BBC with the screen off? I know that the processor is seriously slowed down with the screen on for the plus/4, almost to the level of the C64! But with the screen off you it's faster, I can only assume that the 1.76MHz 8501 is more effective than the 2 MHz 6502s used in the other two machines? Or is there other architectural problems that hold them back?

Quote from: ivarf on 13:22, 19 January 17
What makes you say that plus/4 is faster than the Commodore 128 and BBC with the screen off? I know that the processor is seriously slowed down with the screen on for the plus/4, almost to the level of the C64! But with the screen off you it's faster, I can only assume that the 1.76MHz 8501 is more effective than the 2 MHz 6502s used in the other two machines? Or is there other architectural problems that hold them back?

Commodore+4 has a bit to toggle between PAL and NTSC modes.  So C+4/PAL with this bit switched to NTSC has 25% speed boost.  Its 6502 works at 2.21 MHz at this mode.  See http://litwr2.atspace.eu/pi/pi-spigot-benchmark.html (http://litwr2.atspace.eu/pi/pi-spigot-benchmark.html) for a proof.  I may also give a link to another demo - http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/HNY2013 (http://plus4world.powweb.com/software/HNY2013) - a moving picture is drawn by CPU only.
Commodore Basic for +4/128 is slow but it gives more memory and functions than Amstrad CPC Basic.  BBC Micro has an excellent Basic but the fastest is Mallard Basic for Amstrad PCW.

Quote from: litwr on 16:58, 29 January 17
Commodore Basic for +4/128 is slow but it gives more memory and functions than Amstrad CPC Basic.  BBC Micro has an excellent Basic but the fastest is Mallard Basic for Amstrad PCW.

I think both of these Amstrad Basics have its origins on the BBC...

Recently a read this topic, and I think some of you know quite a little about some platforms, especial XL/XE.
So I gave you some links. :)

http://g2f.atari8.info/gallery_hires/index.html  - Atari's like MODE 1 - withaut tricks just 2 shade of the same color.
http://g2f.atari8.info/gallery/index.html         - Atari's like MODE 0 - with tricks could be 5 or 6-bits per pixel, and overscan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40CPFljl3fk   - Diamond GUI for Atari 8b from 1989, cartridge version only.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIDD306aYhQ  - 60 old Atari's games in 5 minutes. Most best newest missed.

http://www.colodore.com  - How is change palette in C64 (Vic-II) and C+4 (TED) when you tuning saturate.

jesusarnold (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4CuqbDUPaa7WcM4jGoeafQ) - it's channel with few 100 games in 10 min. films. I like Sega Master and NES. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2EqX3rpJ6M&list=UU4CuqbDUPaa7WcM4jGoeafQ&index=24
- CPC for example above, and  SMS here ->  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmMCmZkXrMQ

MSX2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usMQho6FrcA - 40 min. Sorry, I can't find something shorter.

If you want more similar link, let me know. :)

Quote from: ivarf on 12:04, 10 January 17
Have anyone seen sales numbers for the Sam Coupe, MSX2 and Amstrad plus/GX4000. I assume the first and only batch of Amstrad pluses/GX with were several hundredthousands machines.

As the thread has been revived anyway: I was a Sam owner back in the day and the number I have seen most often for it is just 13,000 machines produced, quite possibly all by MGT. Different people have different opinions as to whether SamCo manufactured only, but West Coast Computers' were definitely just cheaply-modified unsold stock.

Quote from: ASiC on 09:49, 11 January 17
I think the main issue with the Sam Coupe is the shared memory pool.
Same as the CPC but it was more severe on the Sam resulting in an effective CPU speed of only 14% faster than the speccy.
Also considering that the Sam had to push more pixels than the speccy, that percentage went down even further.

Same number of pixels as a Spectrum (except in its Mode 3), but at four bits per pixel rather than 1.125. Absolutely crippled by memory contention though, as you say: that's 128 bytes for the pixel area in the main two modes, with the active area being about 2/3rds of the display. So the display requires exactly 50% more memory bandwidth than does the CPC's.

The same rule as the CPC applies anywhere that pixels are not on display: the CPU may make one memory access every four cycles. Where pixels are on display, it may make an access only once every eight cycles.

Mode 1 is the Spectrum-compatible mode, and slows things down even further by applying the once-in-eight penalty approximately half the time even while pixels aren't being fetched. Mode 2 is a Spectrum-esque mode but pixels are linear and attributes apply to 8x1 regions. There is no additional slowdown.

Ordinarily the pixel portion of the display is 192 lines high out of 311, so pixels in general are being output close to 41% of the time.

Assuming everything's being run in RAM, that the display is normal, and that memory accesses are the limiting factor then, given the nominal CPU clock speed of 6Mhz, for almost 59% of the display the processor is running about 150% as fast as a CPC. For the other 41% it's running about 75% as fast.

So I make that about 20% faster than a CPC. But with a fixed 24kb frame buffer, and no hope of getting hardware help at all. Picking which 32kb page it falls in is the limit of your ability to pick video modes and it is not believed that there is any way to trick the ASIC into deferring its work.

In net: think of the best software scroll you've seen on a CPC and imagine it being about 25% slower.

There are per-line interrupts and you can disable the display entirely and get that processing time back so it's possible to create a shorter display but it's not common because the display is already quite wide compared to its height: pixels are about 125% as wide as tall, so the aspect ratio with all pixels allowed is approximately 5:3.

Quote from: ThomH on 22:34, 17 November 17
As the thread has been revived anyway: I was a Sam owner back in the day and the number I have seen most often for it is just 13,000 machines produced, quite possibly all by MGT. Different people have different opinions as to whether SamCo manufactured only, but West Coast Computers' were definitely just cheaply-modified unsold stock.


In net: think of the best software scroll you've seen on a CPC and imagine it being about 25% slower.

Interesting post. I have found the number for the GX4000, its about the same as the Sam, 15 000.


Which CPC game has the best softwarescroll, biggest, smoothest? Anyone?

Quote from: ivarf on 23:18, 17 November 17

Interesting post. I have found the number for the GX4000, its about the same as the Sam, 15 000.


Which CPC game has the best softwarescroll, biggest, smoothest? Anyone?

Think that's been asked a number of times and the are some threads about it.  Tornado low level ttl has good scrolling.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

Quote from: litwr on 15:33, 09 January 17
I have made a list of 8 bit home computers which are the best (IMHO) with some feature.

Maybe it would be a great idea to add a poll here.  :)

If I look at it from a 2024 perspective, these are my criteria:

• RGB output, in both 40 and 80 column mode with on the fly switching, so it can be hooked up to a regular colour CRT TV.
• A nice colour palette, no need to have gaming sprite capabilities, but I want some colour for terminal use.
• Decent keyboard with proper layout, position of shift, delete and enter is OK, decent arrow keys, numpad and default uppercase/lowercase typing with BASIC recognising both.
• Proper BASIC, with at least EDIT, non-destructive directory of the storage, and insert behaviour (so you can type between characters in a line of code)
• Industry standard serial port either RS-232 or 5V UART so I can hook up a modem or PC/Mac.
• Built-in power supply or generic power input socket for easy to use replacement adapters
• Room for internal expansion/mods
• 9-10 points on the iFixit repair index
• Reasonable priced second hand and available in the EU.
• Reliable hardware, or easy to fix and find components for
• Fast and simple to use storage, preferably easy to use 3,5 inch PC floppy drives.
• Good aesthetics

As you might see, I'm kicking the shins of the C64. That machine hardly ticks any requirement of my list. My top contenders are the Philips P2000T, and the CPC464. I do consider a Spectrum 128K if I can find one.

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:31, 15 January 17

Quote from: ivarf on 07:59, 15 January 17The plus/4 was codenamed 264 under production, Commodore had another machine under development as well, the 364. Amstrad wanted to be better and the name 464 was born.

Is that actually true?

It's extremely unlikely, that anyone at Amstrad (including AMS) had any contact with or inside information from a competing company on the other side of the world. So how would they have known the codenames of the Commodore projects?

Bryce.

Bryce must've been extremely bored today and plunged into the depths of the forum to find unread threads (but I agree)

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:37, 31 May 24Bryce must've been extremely bored today and plunged into the depths of the forum to find unread threads (but I agree)

Sorry, I bumped it.

Quote from: retro space on 13:40, 31 May 24

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:37, 31 May 24Bryce must've been extremely bored today and plunged into the depths of the forum to find unread threads (but I agree)

Sorry, I bumped it.

Why sorry? I had missed it in the first place I think, so thanks😁

I will let you know what I think of all this in 2031.

Quote from: Bryce on 13:20, 31 May 24

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:31, 15 January 17

Quote from: ivarf on 07:59, 15 January 17The plus/4 was codenamed 264 under production, Commodore had another machine under development as well, the 364. Amstrad wanted to be better and the name 464 was born.

Is that actually true?

It's extremely unlikely, that anyone at Amstrad (including AMS) had any contact with or inside information from a competing company on the other side of the world. So how would they have known the codenames of the Commodore projects?

Bryce.

Since Amstrad is said to have been monitoring the market, I would be surprised if they hadn't also been at the 1984 Winter CES where Jack Tramiel showed prototypes of the 264 and 364.

https://www.commodore.ca/commodore-products/commodore-264-plus4-ted-series-the-beginning-of-the-end/

One can only speculate whether this influenced the naming process.

Or one can ask ChatGPT:

Key Points in the Timeline
- Early 1983: Conception and initial development of the 264 series begin, including the Commodore 264 and 364.
- January 1984: Commodore 264 and 364 are presented at CES in Las Vegas.
- 1984: Decision is made to focus on the Commodore Plus/4 for commercial release, leading to the 264 and 364 remaining prototypes.
- Post-1984: The 264 and 364 fade into obscurity, with the Plus/4 and other 264 series computers seeing limited commercial success.

So it's actually possible that AMS saw/heard about those machines and decided to one-up Commodore by creating the 464 :D

Quote from: BSC on 20:58, 31 May 24So it's actually possible that AMS saw/heard about those machines....

We can ask Mr. Lord and others while they are alive whether this was the case.

Quote from: BSC on 20:58, 31 May 24- Early 1983: Conception and initial development of the 264 series begin, including the Commodore 264 and 364.
[...]
So it's actually possible that AMS saw/heard about those machines and decided to one-up Commodore by creating the 464 :D

Some guys here have Roland Perrys mobile phone number, maybe someone can ask him :)

Quote from: retro space on 11:47, 31 May 24If I look at it from a 2024 perspective, these are my criteria:

• RGB output, in both 40 and 80 column mode with on the fly switching, so it can be hooked up to a regular colour CRT TV.
• A nice colour palette, no need to have gaming sprite capabilities, but I want some colour for terminal use.
• Decent keyboard with proper layout, position of shift, delete and enter is OK, decent arrow keys, numpad and default uppercase/lowercase typing with BASIC recognising both.
• Proper BASIC, with at least EDIT, non-destructive directory of the storage, and insert behaviour (so you can type between characters in a line of code)
• Industry standard serial port either RS-232 or 5V UART so I can hook up a modem or PC/Mac.
• Built-in power supply or generic power input socket for easy to use replacement adapters
• Room for internal expansion/mods
• 9-10 points on the iFixit repair index
• Reasonable priced second hand and available in the EU.
• Reliable hardware, or easy to fix and find components for
• Fast and simple to use storage, preferably easy to use 3,5 inch PC floppy drives.
• Good aesthetics

That almost seemed as an MSX2 to me.

Quote from: dodogildo on 15:41, 01 June 24

Quote from: retro space on 11:47, 31 May 24If I look at it from a 2024 perspective, these are my criteria:

• RGB output, in both 40 and 80 column mode with on the fly switching, so it can be hooked up to a regular colour CRT TV.
• A nice colour palette, no need to have gaming sprite capabilities, but I want some colour for terminal use.
• Decent keyboard with proper layout, position of shift, delete and enter is OK, decent arrow keys, numpad and default uppercase/lowercase typing with BASIC recognising both.
• Proper BASIC, with at least EDIT, non-destructive directory of the storage, and insert behaviour (so you can type between characters in a line of code)
• Industry standard serial port either RS-232 or 5V UART so I can hook up a modem or PC/Mac.
• Built-in power supply or generic power input socket for easy to use replacement adapters
• Room for internal expansion/mods
• 9-10 points on the iFixit repair index
• Reasonable priced second hand and available in the EU.
• Reliable hardware, or easy to fix and find components for
• Fast and simple to use storage, preferably easy to use 3,5 inch PC floppy drives.
• Good aesthetics

That almost seemed as an MSX2 to me.

I think CPC, Philips P2000T and MSX(2) all come close yes.

I just ran into another new favourite: the Olivetti M10. That computer is really amazing.

• Great BASIC version
• Remarkable case
• Great keyboard, better than anything else 8-bit
• Pretty awesome and good readable LCD screen, amazing to see how well it holds after 40 years, nice tilt option.
• Non volatile memory: you don't need a tape drive or such, it just works as long as you stay within RAM. You can even keep multiple BASIC programs in RAM!
• Mobile use up to 8 hours on 4AA batteries
• Built in text editor, calendar and contacts application
• Slot for adding ROM applications.

https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/general-discussion/if-you-had-to-choose-1-8-bit-micro-as-the-best-all-around/

A CPC running at 6 MHz is much more balanced than the stock machine. Just replacing the GA clock by 12 MHz and feeding the CPU with /2 instead of /4. Using a Z80B instead of Z80A. With a screen width of 48 chars instead of 64, with 32 visible for 256x256 mode 1 pixels of 1.5:1 aspect.

Quote from: retro space on 07:21, 12 June 24I just ran into another new favourite: the Olivetti M10. That computer is really amazing.

Indeed, this is an amazing machine for 1983! It was released about 10 years before the Amstrad NC100/NC200 but looks very similiar.

The Sam Coupe :)

Quote from: Optimus on 07:20, 17 June 24The Sam Coupe :)

Oh c'mon. Released in Dec 1989. Doesn't qualify  :laugh:

Quote from: dodogildo on 10:53, 17 June 24

Quote from: Optimus on 07:20, 17 June 24The Sam Coupe :)

Oh c'mon. Released in Dec 1989. Doesn't qualify  :laugh:

Nah, it counts. It's lovely, in it's own way. But it sucks compared to a 6128+.  :laugh:

Sam Coupe:

- Great Form
- 3.5" drive
- Screen modes with mode 1 style pixels but 16 colors from 128 colors palette.

- Linear videomode, not jumping every 8 lines like CPC or Speccy.
- The 6mhz and 256/512k of ram
- Very simple to program, few 8bit ports to OUT
- Speccy compatibility
- Even sound chip sounds interesting and good.
- Nice small community
- Suitable for my liking of focusing on pushing the Z80 for software rendering. You could also still write byte if you are lazy to connect left/right pixel to get 2 pixels or mode 0 wide pixel for chunky effects and will still look ok. 128 bytes width, INC L and also INC H if you do half scanlines. 6mhz might be less because of memory contention you lose cycle, but I think the cycles are like Speccy not rounded like CPC. In my recent plasma, I made a test on CPC and Sam, and I would still get roughly close to 50% more speed on Sam. This is my dream machine for my own preference for software rendering on Z80.
- Memory is weird for some, swapping the 32ks, but I find it still ok and relatively easy to manage.
- 16 videorams for tricks, but you can't change vram line, just buffer. 24k for full scrolling is a problem, most games are static, but those normal pixel with beautiful colors look amazing for 8bit. Main trick is using line interrupts to stop at vram you want and change either the palette or which of the 16 videorams (in 512k) to display. But you display 100th line of vrams, you can't display previous line. So some hw raster tricks are not doable but others can be, you have to think around that.
- Despite the 24k, a lot of demo with obvious soft rendering of sprites, scrolling text, 2d stars and other, they are so smooth and fine pixel.

I love my Sam Coupe! Fitted a new clicky keyboard, fixed an issue with bleeding colors, might get more peripherals or something.

Quote from: Optimus on 07:04, 21 June 24Sam Coupe:

It looks like an amazing computer (I already heard about it in the past).

Just for fun, I quickly searched for one on eBay and I failed.

But I found EMPTY boxes of Sam Coupe for ~200 Euros, which gives me a hint about the actual price/rarity of the machine ;)

ps. @Optimus: before you die one day, please put my name on your testament

Quote from: norecess464 on 17:29, 21 June 24

Quote from: Optimus on 07:04, 21 June 24Sam Coupe:

It looks like an amazing computer (I already heard about it in the past).

Just for fun, I quickly searched for one on eBay and I failed.

But I found EMPTY boxes of Sam Coupe for ~200 Euros, which gives me a hint about the actual price/rarity of the machine ;)

ps. @Optimus: before you die one day, please put my name on your testament

Currently there is a disk drive for SAM Coupe at eBay for more than 500 euro, so you can start building it by parts  ;D


By the way

https://www.amibay.com/threads/mgt-sam-coupe.2443950/

with this and the original drive, you have a full original machine :D

Quote from: Optimus on 07:04, 21 June 24- Memory is weird for some, swapping the 32ks, but I find it still ok and relatively easy to manage.

Would be one of my favourite 8bit Z80 machines, but this stupid limited banking for an 1989 machine (we had a similair one from Vortex for the CPC in 1984 (?) as well... quite shit).
When all other Z80 machines of this time already had a 4x16K mapping since the mid-80ies (e.g. MSX in 1984, PCW in 1985, later the NCxxx etc), it was a very bad decission to have this 32K banking. TBH even the banking of the 1984er CPC is more useful.

CPC464 and CPC664 just had no banking. The first CPC with banking was the 1985 CPC6128.

Third party expansions are a different story anyway.

I used to buy my own at 250 british pounds several years ago when I thought that was expensive. Now if one appears it's like 700+
All the retro have inflated. I can't get an old Archimedes with less than 400. I still bought the A7000+ later model with 400.

Quote from: GUNHED on 18:29, 23 June 24CPC464 and CPC664 just had no banking. The first CPC with banking was the 1985 CPC6128.

Third party expansions are a different story anyway.

I thought the 464/664 also use some kind of memory banking, don't they? They have 64kB of RAM + 16kB Basic ROM and 16kB AMSDOS ROM (664) which were somehow "mapped" or "banked" in for reading its content (lower/upper), or do I misunderstand the wording "banking" which is only valid for RAM (I'm sure I do... :) )?

Quote from: HAL6128 on 15:43, 25 June 24I thought the 464/664 also use some kind of memory banking, don't they? They have 64kB of RAM + 16kB Basic ROM and 16kB AMSDOS ROM (664) which were somehow "mapped" or "banked" in for reading its content (lower/upper)

Yes, of course, that is called banking as well. The way how Amstrad already handled the ROM banking was excellent as well and more clever compared to many of its competitors.

Quote from: HAL6128 on 15:43, 25 June 24

Quote from: GUNHED on 18:29, 23 June 24CPC464 and CPC664 just had no banking. The first CPC with banking was the 1985 CPC6128.

Third party expansions are a different story anyway.

I thought the 464/664 also use some kind of memory banking, don't they? They have 64kB of RAM + 16kB Basic ROM and 16kB AMSDOS ROM (664) which were somehow "mapped" or "banked" in for reading its content (lower/upper), or do I misunderstand the wording "banking" which is only valid for RAM (I'm sure I do... :) )?

We talked about RAM-Banking

Sam videoram is 24kbs, it doesn't even fit evenly on one bank. Maybe they thought let's flip the whole thing, why waste extra bits for more configurations?
It seems not a pain to me, not for the things I am doing, where I can handle it relatively ok. But maybe for other software or uses it's not ideal?

Good friend L Curtis Boyle sent me some numbers from the other side of the pond regarding Tandy Color Computer sales in the US:

Coco 1 ~ 500,000 (sold 1980-1984)
Coco 2 ~ 2,000,000 (sold 1983-1990)
Coco 3 ~ 1,000,000 (sold 1986-1991)

On top of that, the Coco 1/2 was sold in Europe and Asia as well. And clones were sold in Asia (the Sampo), Brazil, and other places.

I asked him why the CoCo3 seem so scarce having sold a million units, and his answer was:

QuoteI think there are two reasons that Coco 3's seems scarce; 1) it was only sold in 3 countries, where as the 1/2 were sold in several dozen. 2) Since they are quite an upgrade, and 99% backwards compatible, people tend to hold onto them (I have 2 myself for development, one with a GIME-X and one with a regular GIME, so I can test on both chips. Two different manufacturers of 2 MB RAM upgrade boards as well).

I wasn't really sure in the 80s, but 40 years later I can just confirm that it is the CPC 6128.

However, imho the CPC is not a home-computer. It's (what the name tells) a Color PC.  ;D ;D ;D

IMHO Sam Coupe itself is one of the ugliest computers in history.
Its graphics are inferior to the MSX2. ...
But it has best sound chip of all mass-produced 8bits. Even SID x2 stereo is weaker than SAA.

For people who don't know the Philips_SAA_1099, it was also used in Sound Blaster 1.0. It got six channels and provides stereo. btw: Also used in Silicon Graphics Iris ;-)

Quote from: ZorrO on 20:45, 28 January 25IMHO Sam Coupe itself is one of the ugliest computers in history.
Its graphics are inferior to the MSX2. ...
But it has best sound chip of all mass-produced 8bits. Even SID x2 stereo is weaker than SAA.

I'm no expert on the coupe but the MSX2 released in 1985 only had 8 character scrolling and I would imagine the coupe could fair better?

Quote from: lmimmfn on 02:41, 29 January 25

Quote from: ZorrO on 20:45, 28 January 25IMHO Sam Coupe itself is one of the ugliest computers in history.
Its graphics are inferior to the MSX2. ...
But it has best sound chip of all mass-produced 8bits. Even SID x2 stereo is weaker than SAA.

I'm no expert on the coupe but the MSX2 released in 1985 only had 8 character scrolling and I would imagine the coupe could fair better?

It has zero hardware scrolling capabilities at all, a 24K video buffer (in it's most colourful Mode*) and just a 6Mhz Z80 to push data around. It's worse off than a CPC in many regards (it does at least have more RAM available for preshifted graphics etc).

* You can use a lower Mode to reduce the amount of RAM you have to push, but that increases contention slowing the CPU down - a feature designed to ensure it runs at about Spectrum speed in the lowest video mode (which is identical to the Spectrum).