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General Category => Technical support - Hardware related => Topic started by: cuberdon on 15:54, 29 October 24

Title: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 15:54, 29 October 24
Hi forum ,


coming from sinclair and commodore the cpc464 is a small step aside ;-)


Now , knowing there is no voltage regulator on board the input voltage must be rather precise .

So a little more than 5 volt goes in, BUT ..................

I do measure 3,5 volt on chips the board ,

Do i wait for smoke ? or is there a known culprit which might be the number-one to look for ?


Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 18:54, 29 October 24
Quote from: cuberdon on 15:54, 29 October 24Hi forum ,


coming from sinclair and commodore the cpc464 is a small step aside ;-)


Now , knowing there is no voltage regulator on board the input voltage must be rather precise .

So a little more than 5 volt goes in, BUT ..................

I do measure 3,5 volt on chips the board ,

Do i wait for smoke ? or is there a known culprit which might be the number-one to look for ?




Hi, if the rail is dropping to 3.5V then something is getting hot. Find the component that's hot and you'll have found the problem.

Bryce.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 19:35, 29 October 24
i will need to verify my powersupply  :doh:

Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: SerErris on 19:56, 31 October 24
The 5V Powersupply needs to provide >1Amps better 2Amps. If it cannot provide 1Amp it will probably drop the voltage to much for the CPC to work, or shutdown completely. 

However as Bryce pointed out, one or more chips might be shorted and that drawin all the power the PS can deliver and then dropping the Voltage (the PS cannot keep it up).
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 20:22, 31 October 24
current powersupply can do up to 5 amp , but its output is under 5 volt ( i noticed at no-load ) .

so i need to verify if i can source a better one 
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: pelrun on 05:08, 01 November 24
Be careful cranking up the powersupply until you've identified what is pulling down the 5v rail. 

Although there is a oldschool technique for finding shorts where you turn up the power until the offending component explodes.

I wouldn't recommend it :laugh:
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Rabs on 07:40, 01 November 24
Quote from: cuberdon on 20:22, 31 October 24current powersupply can do up to 5 amp , but its output is under 5 volt ( i noticed at no-load ) .

so i need to verify if i can source a better one
Depending what you want to do after this, further repairs or small projects, I would buy a small bench power supply with current limiting capability. Think mine cost around £50. Of course you would also need to make up a power lead.

Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Rabs on 07:48, 01 November 24
This video may help Noel's Retro Amstrad CPC 6128 Black Screen Repair (https://youtu.be/EyT7gYs--vo?si=ALjdedUNXqaXknMx)
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 10:18, 03 November 24
as soon as all video components have arrived i will be able to do some testing .

in the mean time all info is helpful.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 21:10, 05 November 24
scart to hdmi converter has arrived , scart cable has been made , now to wait for the new powersupply and testing can begin .
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 18:29, 09 November 24
So i switched on the 464 and nothing heats up , it is the GA which becomes warm-ish .

So time for the logic-probe , and maybe more .


All help highly appreciated .
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 13:32, 10 November 24
Try removing all socketed chips and see if the rail goes back up to 5V.

Bryce.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 14:27, 15 November 24
a small delay , need to partly re arrange my workspace ;

my workdesk is gone ..................

report back when i can do some testing .
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 08:47, 23 November 24
slowly getting there ;


(https://i.ibb.co/rcgTPmW/IMG-6906.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rcgTPmW) (https://i.ibb.co/vsnrtyN/IMG-6907.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vsnrtyN)


still need some time to finish the desk .

powersupply has arrived too .
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 08:55, 23 November 24
Your desk is badly damaged, there is no any Amstrad CPC on it. :o :-\ :-X :'( ;D
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 11:13, 23 November 24
wait .......................
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 17:03, 23 November 24
like this ?? ;

(https://i.ibb.co/NL8kfgG/m-IMG-6954.jpg)


poor 464 in tha background just after another zeddy
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 17:28, 23 November 24
we need a narrower spectrum to investigate this  :P
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 17:34, 23 November 24
mmm , if you look very closely you could see 5 !!

those speccy's are the last in for surgery , after that the spectrum activities wil close .

Needles to say there is a cpc waiting to be repaired ( with this forums help ) 

And a commodore 128 , and a rather sad amiga 500 . 
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 19:11, 23 November 24
Quote from: cuberdon on 17:34, 23 November 24mmm , if you look very closely you could see 5 !!

those speccy's are the last in for surgery , after that the spectrum activities wil close .

Needles to say there is a cpc waiting to be repaired ( with this forums help )

And a commodore 128 , and a rather sad amiga 500 .

Well at least you can use some of the speccy parts to fix further Amstrads! And the rubber keyboards are useful as a mat to stop the CPC from slipping off the table.

Bryce.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 20:28, 23 November 24
Bryce , 

speccy's are multi purpose !!


Nowto find time to re-connect everything , and start testing the cpc.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 23:01, 23 November 24


::)
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 23:37, 23 November 24
Many doors are waiting for Sinclair ZX
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 10:09, 24 November 24
as the zx81 is only made with 4 chips , one of them being an ULA ( expensive !! and hard to get  ) every enthusiast has a doorstopper laying around
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: SerErris on 19:01, 25 November 24
(https://revspace.nl/images/c/c8/PCB_Preview_ZX81%2B38_rev_1%2C9_top.png)

There is a replica without the ULA.  This one is called ZX81Plus38. The Plus38 stands for 1981+38=2019, the year when the original author started the project. However it did not come to live in 2019 ... 

As always the ULA is just the one chip that made the ZX81 commercially viable (cheap). However it does work completely without it.

Very interesting read on the development of the whole replica here:
https://revspace.nl/ZX81plus38_simple_to_build_ZX-81_clone

The first schematics were done in 2019 - even Rev1.3 however the first actual hardware has been done in 2020 with Rev1.4 was still problematic and required bug fixing and other changes, so that we are now at Rev1.10 at github repo.

Just if you want to build one. I do have a kit lying around here as well as a spectrum+ replica kit. I just need to find the time to solder everything in place. As now the dark nights are coming ... I will probably find some time.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 19:45, 25 November 24
Got 2 of those and both refuse to load data .

altough all options have been tested they simply crash .

the zx81+38 is an ongoing project wich is still changing a bit .

It uses the original rom .

i also have 2 zx80 clones which are housed in a 3d printed replica case and look the thing .
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 20:24, 25 November 24
I've one of these (ZX80Core) lying around somewhere here, but I think I've only ever used it twice.

https://www.8bity.cz/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/ZX80Core_Martin_AcrylicCase_front.jpg

Bryce.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 19:24, 08 December 24
unfortunately inserting an image is almost impossible ,

https://i.ibb.co/bL62L9G/clock-circuit.jpg

i verified the pcb with this schematic and it does not match .

i have a pulse at pin 8 of ic 125 , but nothing at pin 8 of ic 116 ????

pcb Z70200  MC0002D

am i overlooking something here ??

Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: robcfg on 19:48, 08 December 24
Hmmm, you just need to click on the 'insert picture' icon to the right of the YouTube one, write the url you just linked, click 'Insert' and that's it:
(https://i.ibb.co/bL62L9G/clock-circuit.jpg)
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 21:57, 08 December 24
In total, there were quite a few CPC versions

This schem is one of the first.

Find Your main board here... https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions

ps. first click PREVIEW... after this You can add image
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: robcfg on 22:08, 08 December 24
Quote from: McArti0 on 21:57, 08 December 24In total, there were quite a few CPC versions

This schem is one of the first.

Find Your main board here... https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Mainboard_Versions

ps. first click PREVIEW... after this You can add image
That works if you'd like to upload an image from your computer. 

To link an image from internet, you need to click on the "Insert an image" icon to the right of the YouTube one, that will open a small dialog, enter the url of the image and then click on the "Insert" button on the dialog.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 22:21, 08 December 24
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/manuals/Amendment%20Service%20Manual.zip

and look this manual
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 09:13, 09 December 24
Thanks for this info , 

i go and search with the other schematics to see if that matches my pcb
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: SerErris on 14:43, 16 December 24
Your clock circuit is in the amendet service manual linked by McArti0
clock_circuit.jpg
The improved it and made it much simpler (less parts), now with NOT gates instead of NAND gates.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 18:48, 22 December 24
So , after some testing with the new schematic , 

the clock signal is available on ;

ic 125 -4
ic 126 -8

ic 125 -6
ic 111 -6

i verified the data and address lines with a logic probe , but no activity there .

what am i missing ??

any advice highly appreciated 
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 21:17, 22 December 24
Quote from: cuberdon on 18:48, 22 December 24So , after some testing with the new schematic ,

the clock signal is available on ;

ic 125 -4
ic 126 -8

ic 125 -6
ic 111 -6

i verified the data and address lines with a logic probe , but no activity there .

what am i missing ??

any advice highly appreciated

Ok, the thread got slightly diverted, so lets recap... Do you have 5V on the PCB (power pins of any chip)? Is the screen completely black or is it a black square in the middle?

Bryce.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 00:17, 23 December 24
Have You 40007 with radiator?
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 08:06, 23 December 24
@Bryce

no screen image at all ,

but maybe my converter is not correct too ( scart cable to converter ) 

i will try to get composite connected 


Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 08:07, 23 December 24
@ McArti0 (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/profile/?u=4820) ,

the aluminium radiator is present en get's warm too
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 09:23, 23 December 24
Try IC111 Z80 signal M1 Pin27 (if working Z80)

Try IC126 40007 GA  signal READY Pin2 (If working GA)

Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 11:51, 23 December 24
McArti0 (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/profile/?u=4820) ,


Both pins pulse on my logic probe
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 13:20, 23 December 24
Quote from: cuberdon on 08:06, 23 December 24@Bryce ,

no screen image at all ,

but maybe my converter is not correct too ( scart cable to converter )

i will try to get composite connected



Until you've confirmed that your video setup works, there's not really any point in trying to diagnose anything further.

Bryce.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 13:41, 23 December 24
Bryce ,


How to get composite working ?

pin 6 and pin 5 do not generate any image

(and the input on my monitor is working )

my monitor does not have scart
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 14:40, 23 December 24
middle pin is composite.

look on oscilloscope.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 15:11, 23 December 24
middle pin and ground do not give me image on a working composite monitor


-verified with a sinclair spectrum :-)
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: McArti0 on 15:50, 23 December 24
GA pin1 nCpu 1MHz
GA pin40 cclk 2MHz

GA pin15 vsync 50Hz (or ~4Hz)
GA pin14 hsync 15,6kHz (or ~7kHz)

GA pin11 vsync+hsync

Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 16:46, 23 December 24
Quote from: cuberdon on 15:11, 23 December 24middle pin and ground do not give me image on a working composite monitor


-verified with a sinclair spectrum :-)

In that case, and if holding the DEL key also doesn't give you a beep, I'd suspect the Z80 as the most likely failure.

Bryce.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 17:04, 23 December 24
Bryce , 

luckily i have some z80's available .

I will try setting up my oscilloscope to get some waveforms measured 

Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: Bryce on 17:08, 23 December 24
Quote from: cuberdon on 17:04, 23 December 24Bryce ,

luckily i have some z80's available .

I will try setting up my oscilloscope to get some waveforms measured



Why? Just swap it out and see if it works. It's in a socket. No need to do any further tests beforehand.

Bryce.
Title: Re: cpc464 repair black screen newbie question
Post by: cuberdon on 13:45, 26 December 24
Unfortunately changing the z80 for a known good one , does not change the problem .

i will set up my oscilloscope to get a better view on things
 



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