Hi guys,
I am a new user of the forum. I bought back recently a cpc6128 after what... 25 years without one lol, so I am trying to use it !
I have a problem, it powers on but the disk drive led stays on a "bit" (liked dimmed) and when I type "cat" (without any disk inside the drive), I got the tape prompt which says : "Press play on tape.." Is this normal ?
Unfortunately, I do not have any 3" disk to test it more, but these days 3" seems pretty outdated, so what is the best solution to use these internet .dsk files on my CPC ? 3.5" or maybe a SD reader ?
Anyone can help please ?
Thank you :D
Hi squale and welcome,
Not good news unfortunately. If it's asking for a tape without you having typed |Tape beforehand, then either ROM 7 has failed or the FDC has failed. (My money is on ROM 7). Maybe you need to open it up and see if the previous owner has modified it at all.
All easily fixable luckily.
Try typing other ROM 7 commands (like |B for example). If it says unknown command, then ROM 7 is dodgy.
Bryce.
Hi Bryce and thanks for the help.
This "ROM7" is a chip that I can find easily to replace ?
I should be able to fix if I have the part, will try what you suggested and let you know.
thx
Quote from: squale on 12:48, 24 October 14
Hi Bryce and thanks for the help.
This "ROM7" is a chip that I can find easily to replace ?
I should be able to fix if I have the part, will try what you suggested and let you know.
thx
Hi Squale,
The Rom 7 shoudl be freely available from many people here. I have several available. However as a general rule I'd recomment you replace it with a ParaDOS rom instead of a standard Rom7 (AmsDOS)
this upgrade will give you access to Disc formatter, file copier, disc verifier without needing any other tools. Oh It also provides 800k per disc formats on a 3.5 inch drive (as A or B)
If you want a copy of either AMSDOS (The standard ROM7) or ParaDOS then I am sure I can provide them.
Kind Regards
Craig
Hi Craig,
I understand a bit better, it seems that this ParaDos is the ultimate rom to have by now ?
I am very interested if you have one, let me know your conditions.
Regards.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 12:53, 24 October 14
Hi Squale,
The Rom 7 shoudl be freely available from many people here. I have several available. However as a general rule I'd recomment you replace it with a ParaDOS rom instead of a standard Rom7 (AmsDOS)
this upgrade will give you access to Disc formatter, file copier, disc verifier without needing any other tools. Oh It also provides 800k per disc formats on a 3.5 inch drive (as A or B)
If you want a copy of either AMSDOS (The standard ROM7) or ParaDOS then I am sure I can provide them.
Kind Regards
Craig
Quote from: squale on 13:47, 24 October 14
Hi Craig,
I understand a bit better, it seems that this ParaDos is the ultimate rom to have by now ?
I am very interested if you have one, let me know your conditions.
Regards.
conditions? PM me your address and I'll burn one and post it next week as I am away at my parents place in Donegal this weekend.
Craig
Quote from: squale on 13:47, 24 October 14
let me know your conditions.
1 - A Big Mac Meal
2 - Samantha Fox to perform "Touch Me"
3 - A helicopter to make my escape.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 14:07, 24 October 14
1 - A Big Mac Meal
2 - Samantha Fox to perform "Touch Me"
3 - A helicopter to make my escape.
Samantha Fox was gorgeous but is a bit old now, btw she's a girl from CPC times lol.. makes sense !! :P
Quote from: CraigsBar on 13:59, 24 October 14
conditions? PM me your address and I'll burn one and post it next week as I am away at my parents place in Donegal this weekend.
Craig
Thanks thats very nice from you ! PM done. ;)
Btw do you have any recommendation concerning the best way today to use .dsk files on the CPC ?
Quote from: squale on 14:10, 24 October 14
Samantha Fox was gorgeous but is a bit old now, btw she's a girl of CPC times lol.. makes sense !! :P
Just a shame her voice reminds me of a chainsaw hitting granite. Now Kelly LeBrock (Wired Science), *SHE* has a sexy voice.
Craig
Quote from: squale on 14:12, 24 October 14
Thanks thats very nice from you ! PM done. ;)
Btw do you have any recommendation concerning the best way today to use .dsk files on the CPC ?
Yes. Buy an HxC SD card thingy!
These are amazing devices that allow you to boot and run pretty much any DSK file from an SD card (OK you need to convert them to an HFE file first, but the tools to do that work really well on Window$, OS-X and Linux.
Craig
Quote from: CraigsBar on 14:17, 24 October 14
Yes. Buy an HxC SD card thingy!
These are amazing devices that allow you to boot and run pretty much any DSK file from an SD card (OK you need to convert them to an HFE file first, but the tools to do that work really well on Window$, OS-X and Linux.
Craig
Yes, although I'd say "fairly well" for the Windows tools I tried. Bulk conversions can be fiddly. Shame nobody has a torrent of the entire CPC archive as HxC ready files like you can get for the C64 and other machines.
Do I need to replace the internal 3" FDD ? Or it is better to have the HxC has a second drive ?
Which HxC is the most suited ? the Slim or normal one ?
Quote from: squale on 15:12, 24 October 14
Do I need to replace the internal 3" FDD ? Or it is better to have the HxC has a second drive ?
Which HxC is the most suited ? the Slim or normal one ?
It depends on your needs.
I would not replace the internal 3" drive personally because I still have plenty of 3" games that I still enjoy (Robocop anyone?) and therefore would miss these if I replaced the drive.
By Christmas I hope to have 3 of these little beauties...
I have the original open board one on my 6128plus as a B drive
http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=13 (http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=13)
I will be buying a cased version (in white) for my soon to be returned upgraded 464plus
http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=62 (http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=62)
And the internal floppy model for my PcW 9512+
http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=122 (http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=122)
So I definitely recommend the screen equipped models. As the CPC allows 15 dsk files to be active at any one time, the screen allows you to know which one is currently inserted into the Emulated drive. so if you are planning on changing the virtual discs frequently then one of the screen ones is the one to go for. If you have a few disc images, and will remember where they all are then the display is perhaps an extravagance.
The cost of the screeny models is not that much more and so much more convenient for me it is a no brainer.
Also remember that adding an ABBA switch to any CPC or plus is quite a simple operation so swapping the external HxC and internal 3" drive is only a switch toggle away.
ABBA switch - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/ABBA_switch)
Craig
I see, I like to keep things genuine so I will let it too I think, even if today I have zero 3" disks.
Is there any disks/games that are not working with HxC ? (Robocop ?)
Did you tried using 3.5" floppies ? That I have a bunch thats why I was interested but dunno if it is simple to use ? Are they R/Wable directly on a PC ? What about protected disks ?
on your 6128+ it is B drive and no compatibility problems or do you use the ABBA switch too ?
thanks :)
Quote from: CraigsBar on 15:42, 24 October 14
It depends on your needs.
I would not replace the internal 3" drive personally because I still have plenty of 3" games that I still enjoy (Robocop anyone?) and therefore would miss these if I replaced the drive.
By Christmas I hope to have 3 of these little beauties...
I have the original open board one on my 6128plus as a B drive
http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=13 (http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=13)
I will be buying a cased version (in white) for my soon to be returned upgraded 464plus
http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=62 (http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=62)
And the internal floppy model for my PcW 9512+
http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=122 (http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=122)
So I definitely recommend the screen equipped models. As the CPC allows 15 dsk files to be active at any one time, the screen allows you to know which one is currently inserted into the Emulated drive. so if you are planning on changing the virtual discs frequently then one of the screen ones is the one to go for. If you have a few disc images, and will remember where they all are then the display is perhaps an extravagance.
The cost of the screeny models is not that much more and so much more convenient for me it is a no brainer.
Also remember that adding an ABBA switch to any CPC or plus is quite a simple operation so swapping the external HxC and internal 3" drive is only a switch toggle away.
ABBA switch - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/ABBA_switch)
Craig
Quote from: squale on 16:17, 24 October 14
I see, I like to keep things genuine so I will let it too I think, even if today I have zero 3" disks.
Is there any disks/games that are not working with HxC ? (Robocop ?)
Did you tried using 3.5" floppies ? That I have a bunch thats why I was interested but dunno if it is simple to use ? Are they R/Wable directly on a PC ? What about protected disks ?
on your 6128+ it is B drive and no compatibility problems or do you use the ABBA switch too ?
thanks :)
I have an ABBA switch on my plus.
As far as I know the only dsk I have that had compatibility issues with the HxC was Prehistorik 2. But a quick posting here and a new version of the software was created to fix this.
Craig
Most games will only run from A, so if you have the HxC as B, you'll need an ABBA switch to use it properly.
Bryce.
Quote from: squale on 16:17, 24 October 14Did you tried using 3.5" floppies ? That I have a bunch thats why I was interested but dunno if it is simple to use ? Are they R/Wable directly on a PC ? What about protected disks ?
I do have a couple of 3.5 inch drives yes, and with Parados I can format them to 796kb to use as multiple game discs. So far no issues with any of them. Even those that need an abba switch to run from the external drive as A are fine on a big format thanks to Parados.
Thanks.
I checked the HxC website, there is a software to manage it on the CPC (as well on the Amiga (and ST), is this something cool or using the LCD screen is better ?
The software is fine, but what if you need to change discs?
You can load up to 8 into different slots in the software and then use the screen to select which one you want at ANY time.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 09:56, 26 October 14
The software is fine, but what if you need to change discs?
You can load up to 8 into different slots in the software and then use the screen to select which one you want at ANY time.
indeed. Except it's 15 slots not 8 otherwise chinny is spot on. The hxc is an awesome piece of kit the Rom of the hxc manager is definately a must have in an x-mem. No worries if you don't have an x-mem, the hxc has one extra (non changeable) slot that has the tool on the virtual floppy disc.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 14:34, 24 October 14
Yes, although I'd say "fairly well" for the Windows tools I tried. Bulk conversions can be fiddly. Shame nobody has a torrent of the entire CPC archive as HxC ready files like you can get for the C64 and other machines.
I only had issues with one or two files when mass-converting the entire CPC archive, a long time ago. I reported those files to Jeff and the problem was fixed within a day. What kind of problems did you get?
Quote from: Gryzor on 18:32, 27 October 14
I only had issues with one or two files when mass-converting the entire CPC archive, a long time ago. I reported those files to Jeff and the problem was fixed within a day. What kind of problems did you get?
There's no file sorting. So if you add a new image it ends up down the bottom of the list rather than being displayed alphabetically like every other 8 bit SD/compact flash card solution I use.
Files seemed to go missing during batch conversion.
It works and is a damn site better than many utilities mind. But the device is so high quality that it's a shame it falls sort especially on the file sorting.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 18:52, 27 October 14
There's no file sorting. So if you add a new image it ends up down the bottom of the list rather than being displayed alphabetically like every other 8 bit SD/compact flash card solution I use.
Files seemed to go missing during batch conversion.
It works and is a damn site better than many utilities mind. But the device is so high quality that it's a shame it falls sort especially on the file sorting.
File sorting has nothing to do with the conversion software, and even if I put an archive up for grabs you'd still have the same problem. You'd have to use a FAT sorting prog or something (oh, and I think I have the same issue with my Everdrives).
As for files missing, have you run a dir diff to see which ones? There might be a problem we should look into...
Here's a nice in-depth description of the issue: FAT-32 Sorter - CodeProject (http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/95721/FAT-Sorter)
And IIRC the fact that you see the files sorted on your Mac/PC/whatever is down to the OS/file manager that had to do the sorting each time it displays the file list. I think I had discussed it with Jeff (of HxC fame) a long time ago and he reasonably claimed that doing the sorting on the Amstrad would be a slow affair, especially with long dirs...
Concerning the 3.5" floppy drives, is any PC model will suit the CPC ?
What about slim ones ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Any, but better to get one that you can get a ready signal from. Slim ones are ok too.
Bryce.
Thx Bryce, that ready signal is useful for what ? How to know if its present ?
My idea is to replace the 3" with a 3,5" without trashing my 6128.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: squale on 10:11, 06 November 14
Thx Bryce, that ready signal is useful for what ? How to know of its present ?
My idea is to replace the 3" with a 3,5" without trashing my 6128.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The ready signal lets the CPC know if a disk is in the drive or not. You can permamnently set the ready signal, but that messes up some software, so it's better to get a drive that has this signal available and switches the signal only when a disk is really in the drive.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 11:53, 24 October 14
Hi squale and welcome,
Not good news unfortunately. If it's asking for a tape without you having typed |Tape beforehand, then either ROM 7 has failed or the FDC has failed. (My money is on ROM 7). Maybe you need to open it up and see if the previous owner has modified it at all.
All easily fixable luckily.
Try typing other ROM 7 commands (like |B for example). If it says unknown command, then ROM 7 is dodgy.
Bryce.
Hi Bryce,
I just tried and indeed ¦B command outputs "unknown command", I just got an original AMDOS and a PARADOS (thx to Craig) will try them as soon as I will get a din28 socket as my ROM7 is soldered.
Btw my CPC is a Qwerty one with all written in English on it, but I have Centronics connectors & the metal shield. It does not appear to have been opened before.. Does this exist ?
Can I throw out that metal shield ?
Do you know what is the little 'clic' I heard when I have the message to insert a tape and press a key ? Is it a kind of relay ?
Thank you !!
All 6128s had Centronics, not just the German ones.
The click you heard is the relay that actuates an external tape recorder with "Remote".
Bryce.
Quote from: squale on 21:33, 06 November 14
Hi Bryce,
I just tried and indeed ¦B command outputs "unknown command", I just got an original AMDOS and a PARADOS (thx to Craig) will try them as soon as I will get a din28 socket as my ROM7 is soldered.
Btw my CPC is a Qwerty one with all written in English on it, but I have Centronics connectors & the metal shield. It does not appear to have been opened before.. Does this exist ?
Can I throw out that metal shield ?
Do you know what is the little 'clic' I heard when I have the message to insert a tape and press a key ? Is it a kind of relay ?
Thank you !!
Exactly, it's the relay for the tape remote and yes it clicks quite loudly on CPC 6128's
some demos and games even use it to be a drum beat... possibly not the best for the relay but I am not aware of any breakages.
Craig
Quote from: Bryce on 21:57, 06 November 14
All 6128s had Centronics, not just the German ones.
The click you heard is the relay that actuates an external tape recorder with "Remote".
Bryce.
The UK ones had edge connectors just like the cpc 664 and 464. Only the plus range incorporated centronics for all models.
Craig
Quote from: CraigsBar on 22:01, 06 November 14
The UK ones had edge connectors just like the cpc 664 and 464. Only the plus range incorporated centronics for all models.
Craig
I do not know which one I have it has centronics (not edge) and qwerty layout / english text on the cover.. I heard it was only German Schneiders that have it ?
Quote from: squale on 22:03, 06 November 14
I do not know which one I have it has centronics (not edge) and qwerty layout / english text on the cover.. I heard it was only German Schneiders that have it ?
My Schneider CPC 6128 matches that description too.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 22:05, 06 November 14
My Schneider CPC 6128 matches that description too.
Yes but mine's not a Schneider lol
Wow, there are edge 6128s (just checked the Wiki Mainboard Gallery). I have 2 Qwerty 6128s and both have centronics, so I assumed they were all that way.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 22:10, 06 November 14
Wow, there are edge 6128s (just checked the Wiki Mainboard Gallery). I have 2 Qwerty 6128s and both have centronics, so I assumed they were all that way.
Bryce.
Yes that's why I was asking :)
So I understand that mine is ok not a kind of mix of parts.
Do you know if the metal shield is of any use ? Mine is a bit rusty I am not too fan of it !!
Quote from: squale on 22:16, 06 November 14
Yes that's why I was asking :)
So I understand that mine is ok not a kind of mix of parts.
Do you know if the metal shield is of any use ? Mine is a bit rusty I am not too fan of it !!
I always get rid of the shields (not just in CPCs). They cut your hands to shreds when you work on them, they look ugly, make the computer heavy and are pretty much useless.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 22:26, 06 November 14
I always get rid of the shields (not just in CPCs). They cut your hands to shreds when you work on them, they look ugly, make the computer heavy and are pretty much useless.
Bryce.
Yes definitely !!! :) Did the same in my Amiga's !
Quote from: squale on 22:07, 06 November 14
Yes but mine's not a Schneider lol
Amstrad and Schneider fell out and Amstrad then sold in Germany directly... Still needed the shields and centronics connectors for compliance with German laws etc.
So the later CPC 6128 machines sold in Germany were Amstrad badged and centronics equipped. My Schneider is a revision 1 board, weighs a ton and now has a 5v floppy drive so no 12v lead needed.
Craig
Thank you :)
Is that a cable equipped with an ABBA switch ? I can see switches on it to change drive & side ??
Amstrad Spectrum 3 Cable FOR 3 5" Floppy Drive OR HXC EMU With Drive Side Select (http://www.ebay.fr/itm/121464150229?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648)
Quote from: squale on 23:24, 06 November 14
Thank you :)
Is that a cable equipped with an ABBA switch ? I can see switches on it to change drive & side ??
Amstrad Spectrum 3 Cable FOR 3 5" Floppy Drive OR HXC EMU With Drive Side Select (http://www.ebay.fr/itm/121464150229?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648)
Yes to me it looks like an ABBA switch. and a Side switch.
:)
In terms of internal installation, is there a way to do something "clean", i.e : not having a big hole and a small drive (or HxC) ?
Quote from: squale on 14:07, 07 November 14
In terms of internal installation, is there a way to do something "clean", i.e : not having a big hole and a small drive (or HxC) ?
That is exactly why I have kept 3 inch drives in all my 6128s. 3.5 inch drives always leave a gap in the case, and even tho they may well be more functional. I do not like the aesthetics. And I still have plenty of original games on 3inch disks is a different argument as I tend to load from hxc these days.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 14:32, 07 November 14
That is exactly why I have kept 3 inch drives in all my 6128s. 3.5 inch drives always leave a gap in the case, and even tho they may well be more functional. I do not like the aesthetics. And I still have plenty of original games on 3inch disks is a different argument as I tend to load from hxc these days.
The same for me, it has to look cool 8)
Btw my 3" drive seems out of order (belt for sure and maybe more..) and I do not have any disks, so not very sure of the way to go..
What are the symptoms? Generally drive belts are all that dies in these things! Having said that Bryce had to diagnose and fix the pcb on one of my 5v 3inch drives last month. Now all fixes again.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 15:31, 07 November 14
What are the symptoms? Generally drive belts are all that dies in these things! Having said that Bryce had to diagnose and fix the pcb on one of my 5v 3inch drives last month. Now all fixes again.
I am not 100% sure as I first have to fix my rom7 problem.
There are discrete ways of installing a HxC internally such as the way I did it on the 464+ mod: 464+ Mod (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/464-mod/msg52471/#msg52471)
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 15:58, 07 November 14
There are discrete ways of installing a HxC internally such as the way I did it on the 464+ mod: 464+ Mod (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/464-mod/msg52471/#msg52471)
Bryce.
Very good job, btw where is the HxC LCD screen ?
Quote from: CraigsBar on 14:32, 07 November 14
That is exactly why I have kept 3 inch drives in all my 6128s. 3.5 inch drives always leave a gap in the case...
Aside of beauty I like 3" discs for their reliability. Dunno what other people do, but the first pack of 10 Panasonic 3" discs I bought at beginning of 1987 are still working. Files I saved 1987 can still be read and there is not a single read error. :)
Quote from: TFM on 17:08, 07 November 14
Aside of beauty I like 3" discs for their reliability. Dunno what other people do, but the first pack of 10 Panasonic 3" discs I bought at beginning of 1987 are still working. Files I saved 1987 can still be read and there is not a single read error. :)
Ditto. I think that 5mm thick black plastic case makes them bomb proof. So much more so than the 3.5 inch variety
I have never seen a 3 inch disc with a broken shutter.
the drives seem pretty reliable too so I have no complaints
(Although I did need to re-image my Gauntlet disc the other day when testing on the plus... due to the High Score writing bug that trashes the disc :( Oh well I just wrote the 'original dump' DSK from cpc-power back onto the original disc, and then flicked the write protect tab) all good, and the nasty bug will not trash my disc again
craig
Remember when I fucked screwed up my Gauntlet with old and awesome high score list when playing on a Plus the first time. :o Still a nightmare! :o
The bug is that the floppy head get's moved to quick after writing. That can not happen with regular 3" drives, but only with Plus drives which allow to move the head while writing the gap (after the sector). So in 1/4 of all cases the track register of the FDC is off, an this causes the troubles. I learnt about this when I made FutureOS compatible the the Plus. That bug did cost me 3(!) weeks of constant work, because it can not be reproduced reliable. The perfect thing to drive somebody nuts. ... Oh old memories, often enough I thought about to throw something out of the window. :-X
Quote from: TFM on 18:14, 07 November 14
The bug is that the floppy head get's moved to quick after writing. That can not happen with regular 3" drives, but only with Plus drives which allow to move the head while writing the gap (after the sector). So in 1/4 of all cases the track register of the FDC is off, an this causes the troubles. I learnt about this when I made FutureOS compatible the the Plus. That bug did cost me 3(!) weeks of constant work, because it can not be reproduced reliable. The perfect thing to drive somebody nuts. ... Oh old memories, often enough I thought about to throw something out of the window. :-X
@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179): I am a bit confused how this is happening.
Is it this:
- seek to track
- write
and the seek has not finished fully and it can step extra?
or
- seek to track
- write
- seek for next
and the last seek happens too early?
if the track register of the FDC is incorrect, is the writing then failing? I think the sector id would not be found and the write would fail without corruption?
Or are you talking that the fdc writes the sector and starts to write the gap, at this point if a seek happened somehow, the fdc would then write on the next track and cause an error?
it does seem like there is some kind of problem with the seek step pulse and the plus drive.
How did you resolve it?
Do you have a delay to avoid this problem?
I am curious.
Ok, situation with 12 Volt 3" drives (CPC old generation):
- Write Sector, transfer all data bytes
- Start Seek command
- FDC waits until GAP is written (after data)
- Head starts moving, eventually arriving at new destination track
Situation for 5 Volt only 3" drives (6128 Plus):
- Write Sector, transfer all data bytes
- Start Seek command
- FDC writes GAP 70%-80% of time, but sometimes it tries to start to move the head, in this case:
- Head remains on track to finish GAP writing, and..
- Internal Track register of the FDC gets increased / decreased by one
- After GAP is written: Head starts moving, eventually arriving at new destination track
Result the Head is on a wrong track!
How to omit this?
- Read an Sector ID after writing the last sector of a track (this is how FutureOS does it)
When will it happen? / Not happen
- Happens with quick FDC routines
- Doesn't happen with slow FDC routines (most of all stuff)
Quote from: CraigsBar on 17:52, 07 November 14
Ditto. I think that 5mm thick black plastic case makes them bomb proof. So much more so than the 3.5 inch variety
I have never seen a 3 inch disc with a broken shutter.
the drives seem pretty reliable too so I have no complaints
(Although I did need to re-image my Gauntlet disc the other day when testing on the plus... due to the High Score writing bug that trashes the disc :( Oh well I just wrote the 'original dump' DSK from cpc-power back onto the original disc, and then flicked the write protect tab) all good, and the nasty bug will not trash my disc again
craig
At the end, 3" is the solution but we can not find any these days !!! :D
Quote from: squale on 16:27, 07 November 14
Very good job, btw where is the HxC LCD screen ?
The owner didn't want a screen, he installed the HxC Software browser on the MegaFlash (which I also installed inside). The buttons are on the side, out of sight.
Bryce.