Best CPC games by today's standards?

[llopis]

I know there are a lot of top 10 lists out there, but I feel that most of them are based on the reception that games received back when they were released.


I'm very interested to hear people's opinions of what the best Amstrad CPC games are on their own merits and by today's standards. By that I mean:

   
• Independently of any technical achievements (since we can always do better with current platforms)
• With today's sensibilities to game design changes. For example, I think most people agree today that pixel-perfect jumps are not fun. Or having some kind of reasonable difficulty curve throughout the game.
• While we're at it, I'd like to restrict it to games that are best in the Amstrad rather than another platform (Gryzor might be a great game, but it's best played on Mame with the original arcade ROM).

To start it out, some of the ones that come to mind for me:
- Sorcery+
- Head over Heels
- Spindizzy


Any thoughts?

[trabitboy]

I just come back to "subhunter" and "invasion of the zombie monsters" regularly;
they are very good in my opinion; perfect in what they set out to do.

[llopis]

Oh wow, interesting. I have to admit that I've never played a "modern" CPC game. Both of those recent games, so I'll have to check them out. Thanks.

[remax]

"Dead on time" was quite enjoyable for his arcade side.

[Gryzor]

It's only natural that newer releases will conform to modern standards hence they'll have an advantage over older titles, and not only because of better coding knowledge etc. But an interesting question nonetheless.


And yes, do check out all the new releases, there's awesome stuff in there!

[EgoTrip]

For example, I think most people agree today that pixel-perfect jumps are not fun. Or having some kind of reasonable difficulty curve throughout the game.

...
- Spindizzy


Any thoughts?

I agree Spindizzy was, and still is, an amazing game by any standards. However pixel perfection is abundant in it.

Personally I think pixel perfect jumps are fun, they add an element of skill and puzzle to the games. Even the recent Mario platformers still use it.

The main issue I have with games these days (and its a symptom of society as a whole) is that the players have their hands held throughout, and figuring out things for yourself isn't so much a feature any more. So most CPC games will fail when it comes to that.

[dirtybb]

Hi,

One comes in mind,
MGT - The Magnetik Tank


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[khaz]

The main issue I have with games these days (and its a symptom of society as a whole) is that the players have their hands held throughout, and figuring out things for yourself isn't so much a feature any more. So most CPC games will fail when it comes to that.

The problem with Amstrad games, and most of the European 8bit computer games isn't the lack of handholding, it's the lack of understanding of what makes good game design. Most of the time there is no progression in difficulty, the game mechanics are undiscoverable, there is no fairness in difficulty, and the controls are often quite lacking. European devs were excellent at making beautiful games with great stories, but the "game" aspect of their product was quite often overlooked. This went on to the 16bit console and computers, and started fading in the 32bit era, when they finally started applying design cues they experienced in earlier Japanese games. (And when everybody started again with the blank slate that was 3D game design.)

[EgoTrip]

The problem with Amstrad games, and most of the European 8bit computer games isn't the lack of handholding, it's the lack of understanding of what makes good game design. Most of the time there is no progression in difficulty, the game mechanics are undiscoverable, there is no fairness in difficulty, and the controls are often quite lacking. European devs were excellent at making beautiful games with great stories, but the "game" aspect of their product was quite often overlooked. This went on to the 16bit console and computers, and started fading in the 32bit era, when they finally started applying design cues they experienced in earlier Japanese games. (And when everybody started again with the blank slate that was 3D game design.)

Well the 80's were an era of experimentation, so there were no real steadfast, tried and tested formulas to work with. Trial and error was the only way to find out what worked - I think the Dizzy series is a perfect example of this in action. The first Dizzy was great but rough around the edges. Adding an inventory to the next one almost worked, but it was imperfect and TID only having one life ruined the game. They fixed these issues in Fantasy World, and then perfected it in Magic Land by adding a health bar.

Also in Japan the big corporations wrote proprietary software for their systems, such as Nintendo, who could afford to hire the very best and they did, and still do, produce the very best. In the UK it was mostly bedroom coders, some of who were clearly as talented as Nintendo coders, others no so much. The high quality control and licensing system Nintendo use means that its rare that a terrible game gets released. On the 8-bits, anything went.

[khaz]

But Nintendo wasn't the only player in Japan. Capcom, Taito, Sega, Konami, Tecmo... All these companies and even more produced games that are still decent by todays standards. I believe it's because the mentality was different over there: most of these companies evolved from being toy companies first, so they put much emphasis on games to be first and foremost fun to play, whereas European companies evolved from being electronics companies, therefore putting technological achievement first.

I can accept the experimentation excuse up to 1986. But by then, the NES and Master System were in Europe, people could experience good (and no so good) game design first hand. Even then, it doesn't explain the butchering of Arcade licenses like Chase HQ, a beautiful game with a terrible gameplay compared to the Arcade original.

Shadow of the Beast is the poster boy of the Beautiful yet terrible European games, but there are so many of them.

[edit] The Nintendo Seal of Quality only happened in the West. On the Famicom it was the "wild west", everybody and their cousin making cartridges without ever paying Nintendo. But even without the SoQ, Japan produced great games, on the Famicom, in arcade and on personal computers like the MSX, the X68000, NEC PC-8801, etc.

[llopis]

I'm completely with you, Khaz. Especially with the help of some distance, some of those "awesome-at-the-time" 8-bit games are cringe-worthy today.


What do you think are some of the outstanding ones from that period though? Any gems that survived the pass of time?

[khaz]

What do you think are some of the outstanding ones from that period though? Any gems that survived the pass of time?

Outside of modern homebrew games, which can be quite excellent at bringing modern gameplay to this ancient machine, I'd say the arcade ports are probably the ones that stand the test of time the best. Gryzor isn't a great game by today's standards because of its awkward controls anyway. So I'd like to refute your third point:

- Commando, that had the foresight to use both buttons on the controller by default, while still accommodating for the single-button controllers. It's the better 8bit port because of this.
- Bomb Jack is an excellent arcade port with the exact same gameplay. The graphics took a hit of course, especially Jack's sprite, but the enjoyment is still here.
- Killer Cobra is a very good Scramble clone. It's the go to game for some Scramble action.

Then again, all these games have a better arcade edition, if only in terms of graphics.

- Skweek and Super Skweek are still very much playable. The lack of diagonals can be a bit irritating (especially when trying to dodge), but even then it's not difficult to get accustomed to it. The cutesy makes it a cool game for a younger player, and the ample amount of lives given allows them to carry on at least over the first few levels. The idea of playing randomised levels is excellent and gives much replayability.
- Saboteur and Saboteur II may or may not be the best versions (less slowdowns on the ZX but super fast loading on the CPC discs), but once you agree to the premise of it being essentially a puzzle / labyrinth game disguised as an action game, then you can start appreciate its design. It's slow exploration, drawing maps with a pen and paper. Not everybody like those.
- I'm not a fan of the Isometric puzzle games, but I can see why people like Bat Man and Head over Heels. I have no idea what's happening in Crafton & Xunk however.
- Prince of Persia is a looker, even on the CPC. The original was great and the CPC port is outstanding.
- Bruce Lee is cool too. There is no scrolling but each screen is diverse, the character is fast and controls nicely (up to jump, but I feel it's alright here), the mix between action and platform works well. You guys should definitely check out the recent Master System remake. It's gorgeous and the perfect controls makes it almost too easy. it's the definitive version over there.
- The many text adventure games. I'm quite fond of them, whether they are pure text like the Infocom ones or more picture based like the French stuff. Most where ported on everything and you can even play them in your bed on your iPad nowadays, so I don't know if they fit your requirements.

[remax]

Yeah Skweek is a nice exemple.

Perhaps Bumpy can be interesting too...

[||C|-|E||]

I guess that it depends on the genre, but I would say that many of the best games (according to my taste, of course) are the newest as well. For example, I really really like:

- Orion Prime
- Sub Hunter
- R-Type 128K remake
- Megablasters: Escape from the Castle in the Clouds
- Frogalot

And many others, like the Remake of Bubble Bobble and plenty of productions that are very funny by today´s standards. I am just mentioning a few.

From the old times, and not considering if they are Amstrad exclusives (sorry) I think that one of the most playable games from an actual perspective would be something like:

- Turrican
- Turrican II
- Fluff for the Plus (although I do not like the main character at all)
- PopUP/Bumpy
- Psyborg
- Pang for the Plus
- P-47
- Tiny Sweeks
- ...

There are many others I do not recall, but all of them allow you to play for quite some time before dying, have a proper learning curve, are fast and responsive and lack the pixel perfect approach.

[pacomix]

Galactic Tomb

[Gryzor]

I think the lack of diagonals in Skweek was a game design decision, no? It'd become much easier if you could do that...

[||C|-|E||]

Galactic Tomb

That game actually looks great! 

[ivarf]

- Sorcery+

I prefer Sorcery over Sorcery+. The loading of each screen slows it down and somehow takes away some of the good feelings I have for the game. What do others feel?

[ukmarkh]

I think this has been done to death, but here's mine...

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[EDIT Please use the YouTube button to embed your video.]

[llopis]

I prefer Sorcery over Sorcery+. The loading of each screen slows it down and somehow takes away some of the good feelings I have for the game. What do others feel?

My memories are just loving Sorcery, and then thinking that Sorcery+ was awesome because it was more of the same. I never noticed any slowdowns, but I haven't played them on the real hardware in a while. As soon as I get my USB floppy drive emulator, I'll give them a try and compare them.

[Optimus]

I was thinking of opening a similar thread at some point. I am curious which CPC games have not outrageous game design for today's standard.


For example, I always considered Renegade 1 very bad to get into for new players. Controls are already totally obscurely mapped on the keyboard, you start in an area full of enemy with hard difficulty and no time to react and learn the buttons and then there is small time limit. In my first plays I would just die trying to learn the controls without an empty space to find out and be ready.


In comparison, Target Renegade seems much better in that aspect to me. With the exception of the motorbike coming right at the beginning. But you have redefine keys and easier to start with emptier space and the difficulty ramps up nicely (everybody falls on flying kicks unless you progress. In Renegade 1, they mostly duck your flying kicks even in the first level) and I think it's not hard to learn the controls. If it would be released today it would be ok in terms of game design. Still, a lot of things that could be fixed to modern game sensibilities.


I am especially interested to find games I never played before on the CPC and see how easy it is to get into the first times. Games that don't have clunky controls, bad collision detection, illogical hard difficulty at start and are interesting or addictive enough to keep you playing. Because there are really bad games that I adore (like Kung Fu Master) because I learned it as a child, but if I encountered these games today I would just quit after few secs. What are the few CPC games that would stand up for new gamers ahead of their time in that sense, that's why I like this thread.

[Optimus]

The main issue I have with games these days (and its a symptom of society as a whole) is that the players have their hands held throughout, and figuring out things for yourself isn't so much a feature any more. So most CPC games will fail when it comes to that.

The problem with Amstrad games, and most of the European 8bit computer games isn't the lack of handholding, it's the lack of understanding of what makes good game design. Most of the time there is no progression in difficulty, the game mechanics are undiscoverable, there is no fairness in difficulty, and the controls are often quite lacking. European devs were excellent at making beautiful games with great stories, but the "game" aspect of their product was quite often overlooked. This went on to the 16bit console and computers, and started fading in the 32bit era, when they finally started applying design cues they experienced in earlier Japanese games. (And when everybody started again with the blank slate that was 3D game design.)

I do agree with both, I dislike the linearity of modern AAA games, yet a lot of the CPC and Amiga titles where like tech fests with very bad game design decisions. Some of the most famous Amiga games I heard about where Shadow of the Beast and Agony, however not the top 10 games you would like to play on Amiga. There were no standards of good game design yet (even though one could observe what's going on in the console and coin op side). But you know, I still have some fun playing some old CPC games and thinking "Wtf where they thinking?", so historically I have more fun discovering those bad laughable decisions in old games, than the lack of fun I have in AAA games with too linear gameplay, focusing on telling some cheesy story, having an identity crisis between being a game and a story telling device.


Yet, maybe these standards have evolved today into ideas that good game design must always help the player. People lament the era when games let you in confusing Doom labyrinths or permadeath, so generally they consider bad game design if a game challenges the player. So, sometimes non linear map design or not frequent saves and other stuff are considered bad game design by the majority. So, from once we have some standards of not doing the same mistakes as in the past, not being unfair to the player, but I think most companies exaggerate on these or play too safe killing all the challenge and calling it good (safe?) game design. I from the other side, get bored with most wannabe story telling AAA games on consoles and PC, miss the old exploration in Doom levels, also consider games like Spelunky to be really well designed, despite permadeath and some unfair gameplay decisions, the controls feel so good and the interactions and player agency is so great that I think this is a great game coming from the old era, revamped to the new era without being casualized.


p.s. And it's true, some of the modern CPC games are more fitting in this list, there are more inspirations from modern gaming, mostly indie, on how to make retro stuff in a way that is less annoying to the player but still challenging. R-Type remake is still as hard, but has some difficulty modes even casual mode (oh there are even actual well done option menus instead of old CPC games without even redefine keys or black and white unresponsive menu, I like how R-Type remake is so polished even in the menu!). Frogalot is a more fun to play version of extremely hard Nebulus (I could never get Nebulus past first levels, but Frogalot makes it easier to start, ramps up the difficulty at later levels). Few more other modern CPC releases (not all of them) are much better because the authors are like "How can I do a modern CPC game like the ones I used to play, but without the things I found annoying?" That's what I like about modern CPC games, it's time to reinvent some better designed games with modern sensibilities we never had back in time.

[||C|-|E||]

Nowadays I really love some particular AAA titles, for example the Souls series, Bloodborne, Borderlands, Fallouts, Elder Scrolls, Witchers, Dragon Age, Mass Effects... I think that we have extremely good AAA games out there, to be honest. I am one of those that never complained about the generational change in video games over time  . However, and maybe this is stupid, I miss the a lot the old "AAA" text adventures. I am writing AAA text adventures because you all know that there were houses devoted to create them that were actually extremely good.

On the CPC scene, I guess that it helps a lot that many of the people is actually doing proper modern game development, but just for an old platform. As you said, most of the modern concepts are already there, and that is what actually matters, not the computer running the programs. We are also able to cross-develop and cross-compile, and this helps enormously. If I had to compile/write our very humble text adventure in an original CPC the parsers would not be able to understand so many different commands, compiling the database would take hours and debugging would be extremely difficult. Writing the source would be very cumbersome as well, since it is more than 300KB...  I also heard than Dani is quite happy doing the pixel art in Photoshop 

[Nich]

That game actually looks great! 

And for anyone who's missed it, here's a YouTube video preview:

[TotO]

The Galactic Tomb video preview show a very nice gfx touch. The music sound great, as usual with Mcklain.
I hope a big 'Turrican" level design (look like) with each stage parts using its own tune, to be not boring to play.
Sadly, the video actually show a limited coding work on the player basics moves and scroll engine.

Please, stop to be closed into a 48K memory +16K display mold. CPC is not Speccy.
Use at less a C3 double buffer with byte scrolling to make your games a minimum smooth.