DK'tronics Upgrades

[beaker]

Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention the Sharks with frickin LASERS! I tend to forget the best parts of my plan when I don't have a white cat to stroke.

That's the spirit 

The MegaFlash can be used exactly as you describe: Flash based cartridge-like software, compatible with both Classic and Plus and this can be done without modifying the lower ROM.

Yeah I'm being an idiot, sorry - too much festive cheer; I was thinking in terms of programs/games in the future that may need 4MB and the comment "who will make a 5 x 800kb disk demo/game". I read the CPC can only address 16KB and larger programs need to be split across multiple ROMS so I was wondering if the OS could be patched to access a larger amount of data from an alternative source in the absense of a hard drive rather than sticking to a media with such a small capacity? I should really think about things before I say them 

[Bryce]

The 16K limit is pretty much hardwired for the RAM on the Classic CPC. The Plus can page larger areas from the cartridge, but to keep things compatible with all CPCs, you'd have to stick with the 16K limit. It's still possible to have larger programs though. Multi-ROM programs such as FOS, Protext, SymbOS and others spread the program across several ROMs and page in the one they need while the program is running.

Bryce.

[fano]

1 - Release a 512K DKTronics compatible expansion in 2012 that fulfills the needs of most users.

Yes ! i'd love to see that.Would it be 464/664 compatible ?

[Bryce]

Yes.

Bryce.

[TFM]

@TFM/FS:
Who will make a 5 x 800kb disk demo/game? And why?  (unless we boot from usb/sd/ide)

Well, I already did. It's neither special nor beautiful. But it shows what can be done! I can imagine video sequences in future CPC games.



And as you already mentioned. There are harddisc / USB / IDE and now even Bluetooth solutions for the CPC.

But still, I think I agree with TFM... We should think of the potential. It's better to have more than less!

Of course   We should have a vision of our CPC in future. The limits of that wonderful machine are not reached yet.

I would like a 4MB ram expansion... .
I would expect few programs to be 4MB in size, they will use data compression to fill memory with decompressed data and leave some space for temporary data.

Exactly   And when using GFX one single 0.7 MB disc can hold 4 MB GFX when compressed with bitbuster or something advanced.

If we ever connect the CPC to the net, 4MB ram may not be enough
Perhaps some extra banking could be devised to allow 16MB

Of course! But it seems to be hard to convince people to see the need of 4 MB.

A buddy and me were developping a 64 MB expansion, but the project was abandoned due to his lack of time :-( But I really hope that we can get 4 MB.

[TFM]

Hi Bryce, ok, let me try to focus on your serious comments...

Yareks expansion has been around for years, so why don't more people have one and develop for it?

That's the point. He offered the 4 MB as internal upgrade for a while. And now he is disappeared. However, his approach is a good reliable solution. And aside of me I know other people who have this expanson. His expanson is working flawless with my 6128 (as his internal ROM upgrate to 2.5 MB Flash!).

But seriously, one reason why I want to stick with thru-pin is the fact that RAMs can be so sensitive and tend to malfunction quite often, especially in devices that get plugged on and off regularly, so I want the RAM to be socketed so that it's easily replaceable. With SMD if the RAM fails the board is not user-repairable.

There is no problem with Yareks expansons. They always worked flawless. And I'm sure you can do the same. Further old RAM chips are cheap to get.

If Yarek would produce his 4 MB RAM expansion still, I would't ask for 4 MB here.

4 MB also needs more address decoding, so it's not just the RAM IC, but also more logic and a bigger PCB that would raise the price further.

Well, I don't mind to pay 50 Euros instead of 40 Euros, when I get EIGHT times more RAM

I own several Atari XL/XE and Commodores which have 1MB or more, but I very rarely use the extra RAM.

Well, we are talking about the CPC here, a superior system. So you state by yourself that even commodore crap has 1 MB RAM. It would be a shame to be limited to 0.5 MB with our beloved CPCs. Atari it cool though ;-)

This is definitely a consideration, but I wanted to get a 512K standard RAM expansion finished first, because I still think it is what the majority would prefer.

Well, as you see (provious posts), there are a lot of people interrested in it. But I understand that you want to create a 0.5 MB first. So do you think that there is a change to move on to 4 MB as a second step? Or would it be to complex? (I can only judge from Yareks page, and there it looks very simple, few chips small boards, easy IMHO. But I may oversee something).

[TFM]

Ok, I wasn't going to discuss this openly online yet, because it's a long way away and nothing has been designed yet. So here is my full plan:

1 - Release a 512K DKTronics compatible expansion in 2012 that fulfills the needs of most users.

2 - Release a flexible RAM expansion in the future. The Larger RAM expansion would be DK+Yarek compatible but would use standard SIMM RAM cards from old PCs, that way the user decides how much RAM he wants, the RAM is replaceable and everyone's happy.

Bryce.

I'm happy   I can't wait for the second stage 

I would be interested in the 512k but the 4MB does sound s a bit impractical without a hard drive.

That's not the case. You can crunch software, and when you use it - uncrunched again - then you easily will fill 4 MB.

I can understand TFM, he is always very proud of getting the best of the CPC

In my case, i don't know if i will get the 256 KBs mark with "my" programs; for me 512KBs is more than enough, even with USB,

Usually I would agree. And that's right for most apps and games... but only because up to now only few people have more RAM. If a 4 MB expanson would be available in common people would do a lot of things with it. Just look at AtariST and Amiga. It not only sound samples, videos and precalculated vector tables, or RAM discs - there is much more potential in it.

And as we know R.Palmer is developping the Ethernet card. We will need a lot of RAM for internet access.

but i'm a strange dude 

Haha, in a very positive way. And I hope to be strang too then 

[TFM]

The 16K limit is pretty much hardwired for the RAM on the Classic CPC. The Plus can page larger areas from the cartridge, but to keep things compatible with all CPCs, you'd have to stick with the 16K limit. It's still possible to have larger programs though. Multi-ROM programs such as FOS, Protext, SymbOS and others spread the program across several ROMs and page in the one they need while the program is running.

Well, that's exactly right! And it's not a problem. A ROM program can be continued in another ROM without significant delay. A switch can be done in 6 ys.
(BTW: SOS can just boot from ROM and then it runs in RAM. It's not capable of running in ROMs. Therefore it uses up a lot of RAM).

[qbert]

Yeeeeeeeees... I do need both of them too, Bryce !

Ok, I wasn't going to discuss this openly online yet, because it's a long way away and nothing has been designed yet. So here is my full plan:

1 - Release a 512K DKTronics compatible expansion in 2012 that fulfills the needs of most users.

2 - Release a flexible RAM expansion in the future. The Larger RAM expansion would be DK+Yarek compatible but would use standard SIMM RAM cards from old PCs, that way the user decides how much RAM he wants, the RAM is replaceable and everyone's happy.

Bryce.

[Ynot.zer0]

Yeeeeeeeees... I do need both of them too, Bryce !

Ditto

And as we know R.Palmer is developping the Ethernet card. We will need a lot of RAM for internet access.

I see the potential need here - maybe there should be some soft of collaboration (like what happened with megaflashrom?)

[Bryce]

I see the potential need here - maybe there should be some soft of collaboration (like what happened with megaflashrom?)

We (Mr. Palmer and I) can and do exchange ideas from time to time, but I doubt he needs my assistance as he seems to be well able to design both hardware and software, so I don't have a lot to offer him.

Bryce.

[awergh]

Well I would be completely satisfied with 512KB actually I would be happy with a 64KB RAM expansion so I can finally play Orion Prime. 4MB seems like a ludicrous amount of RAM to have to me but I might find I'm wrong in the future when TFM/FS decides he needs a 128GB RAM expansion.

[Bryce]

I'm fully with you on that one. 99.9% of all current CPC software would work with 512K and 99.9% of the users would also be happy with a 512K expansion. Making a larger more complicated RAM expansion, for the remaining user(s) doesn't justify raising the price of the device for everyone else. That's why the first device will be a standard 512K expansion.

Bryce.

[TFM]

You two guys argue the same way Bill Gates did it when he claimed that no PC will ever need more than 640 KB. We know the problem created due to this short-eyed attitude!!! 

You tell me 512 KB is enough? Well in this case ... You are too short-eyed regarding software! Just use your imagination how much wonderfull stuff can be done with 4 MB!!! Don't tell me that you already have forgotten all your dreams, that would be a pity! 

But like usually: If I say something, first they fight me, then they ignore me, at the end they say it would be common knowledge (the same here as with the lower ROM board, and other stuff). Don't blame me to have cosmic spirit and a vision 

[TotO]

25 years of CPC with 128K embedded memory... Who use it?
You are wrong, the 21st century CPC user only want 64K programs on tape for redefining keys... 

[beaker]

I'm fully with you on that one. 99.9% of all current CPC software would work with 512K and 99.9% of the users would also be happy with a 512K expansion. Making a larger more complicated RAM expansion, for the remaining user(s) doesn't justify raising the price of the device for everyone else. That's why the first device will be a standard 512K expansion.

I take it there would be a fair difference in price, more than €20 or €30 euro?

[ralferoo]

Oh, USB isn't better. It's a pain in the back to program proper USB protocols. Sure the user will never feel it, it just works. Dr. Zed talked to me about this in more detail, so I'm not jealous to people who like to program hardware for USB (doesn't matter if a microcontroller of VHDL).

Sorry, I'm a bit late to this thread. Bit certainly with chips like the ATMEGA32u4 and the LUFA library, it's pretty much trivial to implement any USB device you care. The LUFA library has examples for many different USB devices, both host and client.

[Bryce]

@Ralf: Yes USB isn't as difficult as it's made out to be, just relative to RS232 it is rather complicated and wasn't supported by µPs for a long time, so developers tended to avoid it.

@TFM/FS: Like any device I develop, the goal is to make something that fulfils the wishes of the majority. Just with the MegaFlash, I could have made it for 128 ROMs and I'm sure there are some uses for that, but MOST people will be happy with 32 ROMs so that's what it got, you have to balance features against price and fine the "sweet-spot". The same with RAM, most people will be more than happy with 512K, so why make it more expensive to keep a minority happy?
I assume you drive a car? There are cars that can drive at >300Kmh, but not every car can and I doubt yours does, because most people don't need / want that. Image if every car was a supercar and cost half a million, just for those who wanted to drive faster than 300Kmh.

@Beaker: To be honest I haven't calculated any exact prices yet. My aim/hope is to be able to offer the RAM Expansion at a relatively low price so that it will be widely implemented.

Bryce.

[TotO]

If an expansion is done, sure that the best compromise (technical/price) will be a 512KB RAM. No more, no less.

[Axelay]

Well I would be completely satisfied with 512KB actually I would be happy with a 64KB RAM expansion so I can finally play Orion Prime. 4MB seems like a ludicrous amount of RAM to have to me but I might find I'm wrong in the future when TFM/FS decides he needs a 128GB RAM expansion.

Same here, my main interest would be in having a RAM expansion for the 464 so I can test 128k projects on a CRTC 0, seeing as the DKTronics 64K RAM pack died years ago, and that was my second as it was.


As for 512k, or even more, it's not even a question of whether or not I'd like to produce something that needed that much RAM, it's a question of not having the immense amount of time to spend on usefully filling that much space.

[arnoldemu]

25 years of CPC with 128K embedded memory... Who use it?
You are wrong, the 21st century CPC user only want 64K programs on tape for redefining keys... 

See it another way.

no 3" discs any more, no 3.5" or 5.25" discs can be bought anymore. so you must use old. 3.5" drives with read signal and compatible with cpc, and have the cables and power supply are sometimes hard to find.
drive belts get worn and broken.

yes you can buy Jeff's hardware, but for some it is quite expensive.

ok, so you have much of this old hardware and it works great.. but what about somebody who is new to the scene and has none... and who can't fix things easy...

464 has survived all this.. and can be easily connected up to the pc and sound played into it - so it is easy to get real programs onto it.
and you can still buy cassettes!!!!

but bad: it has 64k of ram.

So I think this is why people are wanting 64k compatible programs - with redefine keys because now they are older and their hands hurt more when they try to use them

[TotO]

It look that peoples want to use the CPC like it was used 25 years ago.
Near nothing was done during all this time to take part of the 128K embeded in the 6128, so a 4MB RAM expansion is just infinity useless.

Today, building an useful RAM EXT. remplacement with 64K or 512K is the same price.
So I encourage Bryce to do that.

[TFM]

I know that some people here (like toto) don't like me. I was never interested in winning a popularity contest and I will never be. In contrast, why should I take a bath in the broad mass if I can do better?
But what people like toto forget is that fighting my visions of the CPC is just fighting the CPCs future.
Sad for you, sad for the CPC and sad for me, because I wasted my time for people who will never understand.

Some of you guys are just consumers. You deny everything at first, and as soon as everybody has it you will buy it. But you lack the vision of future. Wouldn't be a problem, if you wouldn't try to kill all innovations!!!

However the most dumb argument is to say 'There are no programs for a RAM expansion'. Sure, people must have the expansion first, then they can start coding on it. First the hardware - then the software. Is it really so hard to understand that? Or do you just sacrifice the future of the CPC because you want to kick my balls?

Again this place is souce of demotivation.

[TotO]

You are wrong. I hate nobody.
It's nice to doing stuff for yourself, because it's your pleasure.
Making your own OS, dreaming about your own vision on the CPC today and doing think in this direction.
It's nice, because most peoples does nothing.

But... What about users ? Do you know if they share the same vision ?

I'm pretty sure (reading forums) than most peoples are only nostagic of BASIC, Tape games and demo...
Have you asked to others if they find useful to use another OS ? Useful to add huge memory for doing thinks they don't in 80's ?

It's not because I don't share your vision, that I don't like you or what you do.

fighting my visions of the CPC is just fighting the CPCs future.

You don't think it was just pretentious?

[Bryce]

However the most dumb argument is to say 'There are no programs for a RAM expansion'. Sure, people must have the expansion first, then they can start coding on it. First the hardware - then the software.

Of course the software only comes when the hardware is available, but the "signs" of what's needed come first. I haven't heard any software developers yet, that said "Well my software had to be limited because I only had 512K, I would have added more features if I had 4MB of RAM".

Bryce.