@Prodatron a long time ago in this thread (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/other-retro/symbos-for-the-enterprise-128/msg89161/#msg89161) you mentioned a possible port of SymbOS to the NC200.
Did you make any progress with it? Is it still on the radar?
Cheers,
Nick
Hi Nick, yes, it is on the radar, but somehow I was always waiting for an NC xxx emulator with integrated debugger.
As there is no, I should finally start the port anyway. Just have to find out how to use one of the existing emulators for Windows (I am currently trying to start NC100EM).
Quote from: Prodatron on 13:18, 17 June 23Hi Nick, yes, it is on the radar, but somehow I was always waiting for an NC xxx emulator with integrated debugger.
As there is no, I should finally start the port anyway. Just have to find out how to use one of the existing emulators for Windows (I am currently trying to start NC100EM).
That's great news. I had a look for NC200 emulators and found this thread (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/nc100-nc200-pcw-pda600/new-amstrad-nc100200-emulator/) which talks about Emulator Kit (https://github.com/EtchedPixels/RC2014/), and also mentions that MAME can emulate an NC200. I haven't tried either of these yet but will have some time today or tomorrow to see which ones I can persuade to work on Windows.
I got an older emulator version (Nilquader fork) running in Windows, and now try to start with the SymbOS port. I am very glad that Russell was back in action some time ago with releasing 1.3 of NC100EM. I guess I need some help sometimes.
As the screen manager (low level screen routines) has already ported to the NC in 2016 it shouldn't be too much work to port the remaining parts of SymbOS to the NC.
There are still some questions and thoughts:
- what would be the best way to boot SymbOS on a NC200? And on a NC100? Currently I am building the binary as a rom file, which will be used in the emulator but of course can't be used with the real machine.
- an NCxxx can be expanded with PCMCIA SRAM (up to 1MB). Is this as fast as the internal ram? If not, I am thinking about using the internal for the first 64K and the external for everything behind (similiar to the Enterprise 64/128, where you have slow and fast ram, but inverted :D ).
- the Y resolution is very limited, so you will have a larger virtual screen in SymbOS, where only a part will be displayed (escpecially on the NC1x0).
Currently I am thinking about providing three screen modes:
480x128 (??), 480x192, 480x255. I am afraid, that 480x128 makes no sense, as many apps and dialogues will be cropped too much.
I will provide a keyboard shortcut for flipping the screen in a fast way (unfortunately NC only allows to "scroll" in 64pixel Y-steps). So on a NC200 with a selected resolution of 480x192 you will see 2/3 of the total screen and can switch between the upper 2/3 and lower 2/3 just with one click.
The NC100 will only see 1/3 at once, but maybe that's still better than nothing... Let's see, how this will work in practice.
- floppy disc support would be cool on the NC200, as SymbOS supports FAT12 anyway. Currently I wonder if NC200 with connected PSU have enough power for this, and if my current emulator is supporting it. But that's something for later.
This is great news!
Regarding your questions:
Quote- what would be the best way to boot SymbOS on a NC200? And on a NC100?
On an NC100, I'd say having it on rom is almost mandatory. On a NC200 rom would be equally nice, but being able to boot from floppy would be excellent!
Quote- an NCxxx can be expanded with PCMCIA SRAM (up to 1MB). Is this as fast as the internal ram?
I honestly don't know. What I know is that type I PCMCIA cards are hard as hell to find and the ones I've seen are battery backed, so not ideal either.
That said, it seems that a type II card can be used up to 1MB thanks to this little piece you can 3D-print from ThingiVerse (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4539604).
The NC150s also have double the ram if I remember correctly, and the NC100s can be probably easily upgraded.
Quote- floppy disc support would be cool on the NC200, as SymbOS supports FAT12 anyway.
Yes, please! I think the disk drive on the NC200 is a life saver. I'd have doubts that it would work running on batteries, but it should be the expected behaviour running on a PSU.
:D
@robcfg, thanks for your response!
Quote from: robcfg on 23:19, 19 June 23What I know is that type I PCMCIA cards are hard as hell to find and the ones I've seen are battery backed, so not ideal either.
That said, it seems that a type II card can be used up to 1MB thanks to this little piece you can 3D-print from ThingiVerse (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4539604)
Ops, I didn't remember that there are type I and II cards. Battery backed isn't good?
So what would be the best PCMCIA SRAM card for the NC?
It doesn't matter that the SRAM card is battery backed since the NC's internal ram is too. And they are just as fast as the internal ram.
The best card is the one you can get your hands on without spending a ridiculous amount. https://www.best-electronics-ca.com/portfoli.htm is running extremely low on stock now, so you'll want to hurry.
A ROM boot may be doable on the real thing, I think they have a socketed ROM chip accessible without opening the case. Still, the simplest option has to be booting from memory card. You can do this with Function-X, if you have the right data at the start of the card.
The problem then is getting that card written. You can transfer a binary over serial with XMODEM (including a trailing ^Z to stop the ROM OS messing with it in some cases), and use the "Make program card" option - but as I learned recently, non-UK NC100s don't seem to include that option (yet NC150s do). So you might have to resort to *LOAD and CALL in BBC Basic, like ZCN generally does for an initial boot.
Thanks for the hints!
First step is to get it working on an emulated NC200 at all.
"Booting" from an own ROM works fine now, and I am currently testing the low level screen routines.
Unfortunately I won't have any time during the next 2 weeks, but I hope to be able to continue in July.
I mention the battery-backed sram cards because of potential problems of corrosion if they are sold with an old battery on them.
If you need someone to do some beta testing, just drop me a line! ;D
I had a play around with NC200 emulator in MAME, and managed to get Emulator Kit to compile in cygwin, but haven't got around to working out how to use it yet. Unfortunately I couldn't get it nc100em to compile under cygwin. I will try on MSYS2 when I have time.
Regarding booting SymbOS, it would be nice to have some options. Maybe it could also be loaded from floppy or a floppy emulator? I like the thought of being able to boot up any OS I feel like without having to physically swap ROMs.
Quote from: robcfg on 12:48, 20 June 23I mention the battery-backed sram cards because of potential problems of corrosion if they are sold with an old battery on them.
I've got 2 battery backed 1MB cards in the US waiting for my colleague's next visit to the UK (I probably won't see them until Christmas). I really hope there are no old batteries in them!
I heard that PCMCIA II flash cards work with the guide replacement you linked to, but that the built in OS doesn't recognise them. Do they also work as RAM for other OSes, or just storage?
I need to track down a (2mm I believe) rubber band to fix the drive in my NC200. It's surprisingly hard to find specific widths on the internet!
I couldn't resist...
symnc1.png
As you can see at the clock "SymbOS NC" is already alive :D
I have to fix some issues with the keyboard mapping and then next thing will be some kind of mass storage support. But somehow it's working nice already.
symnc2.png
I wonder how to detect, if it's a NC100, NC150 or NC200. I should try to detect the ram (64K or 128K internal), but then there is still the question, if it's a 100 or 150. So I should probably have a look at the rom as well.
And then there is the RTC:
- I couldn't find any information about the RTC in the NC100 >:(
- the NC200 has a different RTC with available docs, but I still have to find out how to use the NC ports for reading (and setting?) it
Quote from: Prodatron on 00:32, 21 June 23- I couldn't find any information about the RTC in the NC100 >:(
It's a TC8521, the datasheet is on the wiki (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/NC_Series) and it's memory-mapped to &D0-&D9 as per NCIOSPEC.TXT (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/NC100_IO_Specification)
8)
The NC200's RTC seems to act like an MC146818, while the NC150 uses the same RTC as the NC100. ZCN's src/zcnfunc.z covers RTC read and write for all NCs, if that helps.
As for detecting NC model, ZCN has an "nctest" command which might be of interest (it can also be run on the ROM OS). The tests that uses are RAM size, ROM page the BBC Basic is in, and RTC type (a bit tricky to test). It also does floating bus and NC200 RTC "UIP" checks, but those are just to try and spot emulators.
Thanks, that was very helpful!
Is it possible, that the NC200 has a different keyboard matrix compared to the NC100?
The matrix, which is listed here...
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/NC_100/150/200_IO_Specification
seems to have at least some of the numbers (4,5,6,7,8,9,0) at different positions, when I am testing it in NC200 mode.
Yes, it differs slightly on the NC200. If you check nc100em 1.3a's sdlmain.c, key_event() there should make things pretty clear, as it covers both the NC200 and non-NC200 cases.
I think another difference is that reading port B9h implicitly clears a keyboard (100Hz) interrupt on the NC100/NC150, while on the NC200 you have to write to port 90h as you would for other interrupts. On a real NC100 you can actually do the port 90h write as well, but I think that causes problems on some emulators.
Thanks Russell! I already modified the keyboard matrix for the NC200, it's working now.
I am already writing 0 to #90 in all cases. If this won't run on an emulator as it is expecting the b9-nc100 behaviour I will know the reason.
I added a provisional ROM disc driver to test, if apps are running, and everything seems to work fine so far:
symnc3.png
symnc4.png
symnc5.png
Here is the ROM file for the NC100EM emulator, if you want to play around with it a little bit:
[url="https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=39706;type=preview;file"]nc200.zip[/url]
Currently it's supporting the NC200 and its 128K internal ram.
Use the yellow function key (this is "insert" on my windows keyboard) to flip the screen up and down. Press Alt+arrow key to move the mouse and Alt+space to click (Alt is the symbol key on the NC200).
On drive A (which is the "rom disc" drive) you will find some files which can be executed.
No idea, if it would run on a real machine. Next steps are supporting memory expansion, supporting the NC100 as well (keyboard, RTC, smaller screen), booting from SRAM card, add control panel/FDC/ram disc for sram card support etc etc, but this has to wait until mid of july.
So the SymbOS NC100/150/200 port (now the 4th platform) is going to become reality, but this port is maybe not so useful, because of the small screen. It's currently using virtual 480x192, which is fine, but you have to flip up and down to see everything. On the NC100 this will be even worse. I will try a resolution of 480x128 as well as virtual 480x256 later.
PS: I wonder, if it would be possible to attach a serial mouse to the NC?
Awesome!
Regarding the apps, I think that if you could add a horizontal layout you wouldn't need to swipe the screen back and forth that much.
Ok, but it will require a redesign of a several forms. I will give it a try. At the end you will be able to choose between 480x128, 480x192 and 480x256. 480x64 doesn't make any sense, so an NC100 always have to scroll.
SymbOS NC now supports external PCMCIA SRAM cards as well for using up to 1MB of ram.
symncc.png
The control panel has been adjusted as well (for supporting the new keyboard and screen), and now you can choose between resolutions of 480x128, 480x192 (virtual), 480x256 (virtual). It was quite interesting, that even 480x128 is working quite ok with several apps.
All apps are working fine including Doom
symncd.png
and even Lymmings (not released yet).
symnce.png
Now I have to figure out how to boot SymbOS not from ROM but from SRAM (PCMCIA) or floppy disc.
I still wonder if it could support a serial mouse.
This is brilliant! 8)
The NC100/200 port is "more" or "less" completed:
"more":
- beside the SymbOS core part all system apps have been extended with platform specific stuff
- SymShell supports a full screen mode on the NC200 with 80x25 chars as well; this requires a font of only 6x5 pixels, which is quite a challenge; see below - are you able to read something? :) ; I guess the font still can be improved; it's interesting that a 4x6 pixel font seems to be easier to do/read than the bigger 6x5, but the y-size of only 5 pixel is necessary for 25 lines on a y128-pixel display.
- anyway textoutput in SymShell 80x25 fullscreen mode is very fast on the NC as the font is stored in 5 different versions, no byte shifting is necessary
Help:
symncf.png
Dir:
symncg.png
Man:
symnch.png
Unzip:
symnci.png
6x5 Font:
font1.png
- Starfield screensaver runs fine as well :)
- FDC driver has been added (no idea if it works, as my windows versions doesn't seem to support it?)
"less":
- we still need a boot loader for a real system which is using an SRAM card with a preinstalled installation
- booting on a naked NC200 system with 128K from floppy without SRAM card as well
- adding RAM disc for SRAM cards: e.g. 1MB PCMCIA cards would be divided into 512K ram for executing applications and 512K ram disc for storing data
- nothing has been tested on real hardware, as my NC200 is currently dead unfortunately
Beside all this I am now motivated to do a serial mouse driver as well. If running only at 1200bauds you only have 3ints/"frame" which is little for the Z80 and more than enough for reading a mouse.
Here is a SymbOS NC release as an SRAM card image.
[url="https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=39843;type=preview;file"]symbos-nc.zip[/url]
Copy the file "nc200.card" to your nc100em emulator directory. Use the original Amstrad ROM for this machine and start nc100em in NC200 mode (option -2 ). Now in the original UI just press Function+X, and SymbOS will boot from the sram card.
It will use the first internal 64K of the NC200 and 448K from the card for having a total of 512K ram.
The second 512K of the card is used as ram disc and is pre-installed with several apps and data. Thanks to the new ZX0 cruncher support it was possible to put a lot of stuff within 512K.
When you quit SymbOS with any of its shutdown options, the emulator will write back all changes to the nc200.card file.
The first 48K of the sram contain the boot code and compressed SymbOS core binaries.
symncj.png
Important keys for using SymbOS on the NC:
- press alt+arrow keys to control the mouse, alt+space/menu for left/right mouse button (alt=symbol)
- press function for scrolling the screen
- press shift+function to turn joystick emulation on and off. In joystick emulation, arrow keys and space/menu will be directly used for controlling the mouse pointer, which is more comfortable.
- the screen will scroll automatically if the mouse pointer reaches an invisible area.
Next plan is to write a tool, which is able to copy such a dump from floppy disc to the SRAM card on a real machine.
Amazing! :o
I've finally managed to get myself a 1MB PCMCIA card for my NC 200. Could anyone explain to me how I can transfer the image over a null modem cable? I don't currently have a PCMCIA card reader.
This... is surreal. Must find my NC200 asap :D
Quote from: pollito on 09:09, 03 October 23Could anyone explain to me how I can transfer the image over a null modem cable? I don't currently have a PCMCIA card reader.
That is what I would like to know as well :D The NC200 port is more or less finished, but something for booting it on a real machine is still missing.
My old real NC200 was out-of-order, I got another one two weeks ago, but it seems, that the disc drive has some problems.
Quote from: Prodatron on 10:41, 03 October 23Quote from: pollito on 09:09, 03 October 23Could anyone explain to me how I can transfer the image over a null modem cable? I don't currently have a PCMCIA card reader.
That is what I would like to know as well :D The NC200 port is more or less finished, but something for booting it on a real machine is still missing.
My old real NC200 was out-of-order, I got another one two weeks ago, but it seems, that the disc drive has some problems.
I'm ordering a PCMCIA reader now but it's PCI-e so not sure how much luck I will have with my PCs. Should I be able to just dd the nc200.card image to the card and it will boot?
I also have floppy drive issues, and am sure it's the rubber band. I'm plucking up enough courage to open the NC 200, but I'd really like to know the capacitor values first because I know at least one of them is dodgy. I want to fix everything in one hit.
Quote from: pollito on 12:03, 03 October 23Should I be able to just dd the nc200.card image to the card and it will boot?
It's a battery-backed 1MB SRAM PCMCIA card?
Then yes: Just dump the nc200.card image 1:1 to this card. I wonder if this will work and how exactly you will do it. Would be cool if you can share your experiences here.
And good luck with your drive and capacitors!
Quote from: Prodatron on 12:21, 03 October 23Quote from: pollito on 12:03, 03 October 23Should I be able to just dd the nc200.card image to the card and it will boot?
It's a battery-backed 1MB SRAM PCMCIA card?
Then yes: Just dump the nc200.card image 1:1 to this card. I wonder if this will work and how exactly you will do it. Would be cool if you can share your experiences here.
And good luck with your drive and capacitors!
Yes it's battery-backed. I ordered two from a guy in the US who refused to send it outside the country, so I got him to send them to a colleague who lives in a different state. Then his friend from the UK brought them back next time she visited, and posted them to my parents. Finally, I picked them up last time I visited my parents in the UK, and brought them back to Romania. :D
I was hoping there would be a BBC BASIC program to receive the file over XMODEM/YMODEM and write it directly to the card, but I can't find anything to do that. It might take a couple of weeks before I receive the card reader as the company has to order it, but yes of course I will share my experiences here!
Thanks, I think I will post a new thread asking about the capacitor values.
Doesn't the NCs have a file transfer function?
Edit: Indeed! https://www.ncus.org.uk/m200_04.htm Function+S Should bring up the serial terminal.
I have a dumb idea, someone making a board with a Raspberry Pico or ESP32 with a screen attached or just a VGA connector (connected to printer or serial port of the Notepad N200), with a graphical API to send only a few bytes to change the external screen content.
Which makes me think, who was working on an graphical API for an external Amstrad CPC screen ? I think that I didnt write about it, and my memory is bad...
At the end, my goal is always to have SymbOS running on a naked unexpanded original machine (these with 128K + floppy), doesn't matter which platform.
That was always possible for all existing ports, and I hope I can achive this as well for at least the NC200 (+NC100 with preinstalled memory card).
Thansk Robcfg for the hint!
Quote from: robcfg on 14:08, 03 October 23Doesn't the NCs have a file transfer function?
Edit: Indeed! https://www.ncus.org.uk/m200_04.htm Function+S Should bring up the serial terminal.
Files can be transferred easily enough, but then you would just get the image file rather than the contents of the image being written to the PCMCIA card. I wonder if someone with the right coding skills could write a program to receive the data from the serial port using XMODEM/YMODEM, and write it directly to the card?
Quick update - my PCMCIA reader card arrived but it wasn't PCI-e at all, it was PCI, and I didn't have any PCs that could take full height PCI cards. Eventually one of my friends was throwing out an old PC that had PCI slots, so I rebuilt it, and installed FreeBSD (my weapon of choice).
Unfortunately, FreeBSD dropped PCMCIA support after version 12 (current version is 14). I then installed NetBSD in its place. It reads a CF card in a PCMCIA adaptor fine, but whenever I insert either of my Apple Newton PCMCIA cards (with the batteries) I get pcmcia0: card appears to have a bogus CIS and there is no device to mount.
I installed a second hard drive in the machine and, after a lot of battling, managed to install Windows XP. Again, the CF card in the PCMCIA adaptor works fine, but both of my PCMCIA cards show up in Device Manager as PCMCIA UNKNOWN_MANUFACTURER. I've tried Snappy Driver Installer but it can't find a driver.
So I'm a bit stuck now. I never thought it would be so difficult to write an image to a card! Any ideas?
This document seems to provide the required next steps for your XP install: https://dl.cdn-anritsu.com/en-au/test-measurement/files/Manuals/Operation-Manual/SRAM_Card_Driver_Install_Manual_for_Windows_XP_SP1_E.pdf
Additionally (since I finally just found it) here's a copy of Elan Memory Card Explorer for XP, that should be able to read/write image files to the device once it's properly installed:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_2PawvQI5HMhtq2bd00Od0NYb6hWsGO4/view?usp=sharing
(it's a bit too big to attach, so it's on my google drive for the moment)
@pelrun many thanks for this. I've got next week off work so I'll give it a go and report back.
I think the issue was that I was thinking of the PCMCIA card for the PC like an SD or CF card reader when it is actually an interface. :)
@pelrun thanks again. After flashing the BIOS on the PC due to a weird "memory window" error, I was finally able to write the SymbOS image!
@Prodatron unfortunately I have no idea how to run SymbOS from the card. [Function] + [R] runs code from floppy but doesn't seem to do the same for the PCMCIA card.
EDIT: Sorry, I see it's [Function] + [X]. Okay this showed a SymbOS boot screen but then the screen just got corrupted. I'll try again with the other PCMCIA card.
Hi Pollito, so you are already able to fill the SRAM PCMCIA card with an image?
And if you even see a boot screen: that is a first great step, wow :)
Please let me contact you soon, currently I am a little bit occupied, but this is really some good progress.
PS: What is the size of the SRAM?
Quote from: Prodatron on 00:29, 18 December 23Hi Pollito, so you are already able to fill the SRAM PCMCIA card with an image?
And if you even see a boot screen: that is a first great step, wow :)
Please let me contact you soon, currently I am a little bit occupied, but this is really some good progress.
PS: What is the size of the SRAM?
The memory card type I'm using is a 1MB Apple Newton Storage Card (that uses a coin battery). I have two of these. I used Memory Card Explorer to erase one of the cards, and then to write your image to it.
The write completes, but MCE gives "Last Op: Checking written data.. 06% Error Card & file different". Inserting the card into the NC 200 and pressing [Function] + [X] shows the SymbOS boot screen, but after the loading bar reaches the end, the computer freezes.
I tried again with the other memory card. Again it shows the "Error Card & file different" in MCE, but with this card [Function] +
[X] doesn't do anything on the NC 200.
Feel free to contact me whenever you have time. I have packed away the XP machine for the time being as my parents-in-law are coming to stay over Christmas while we are in the UK.