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General Category => News & Events => Topic started by: Prodatron on 20:30, 02 September 14

Title: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 20:30, 02 September 14
The final version of SymbOS 2.1 has been released this weekend.

(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/facts/symbos21cpc.gif)

You can download it here:
http://www.symbos.de/download.htm (http://www.symbos.de/download.htm)
While some of the new features are MSX related there are still several new things for the Amstrad CPC and PCW port as well.

Here is a summary (http://www.symbos.de/whatsnew.htm) of the most important non-MSX based changes compared to the last version 2.0:
These new applications have now been added to the download section:
Feedback and bug reports are always welcome!
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 20:58, 02 September 14
So cool that SymbOS works on multiple z80 machines.. However i have no experience with the CPC I watch eBay now to buy one ;) Lot of new features ! I hope those objects, like the multiline textbox comes to Unify as well..
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 21:01, 02 September 14
I forgot to say that with help of symstudio i was able to make something.. A big thanks to trebmint for this amazing tool!!
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 21:05, 02 September 14
Just want to send a big thank you to EdoZ and Trebmint for your help, support and motivation! :) Now the show must go on...
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: radu14m on 21:07, 02 September 14
great work !!!  :)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 21:10, 02 September 14
This as always is great stuff. Love the new font... who did that? haha
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Joseman on 21:34, 02 September 14
Hi

I've been following all the news on the msx forum, I'll test all of this in my cpc-AT when i have time.

I'm thinking on take a cpc464, buy all the new hardware for it (x-mem, floppy controller, already ordered mother-x and playcity, have symbiface) and put again all on a new mini-atx tower. If it not burns then it'll be great to see :D

Thinking in test unify too, i've something in mind...

Thanks prodatron, trebmint, Edoz for all the great work!!


Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: CraigsBar on 02:22, 03 September 14
Oh wow! The notepad is awesome. It opens the read me file perfectly, even does a reasonable effort of the ascii art logo. This is what an os for the next generation of cpcfans should be like. Thanks prodatron. Next challenge tho..... Incorporate minibooster and playcity support?
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 02:31, 03 September 14
Thanks Joseman and CraigsBar!
Playcity support will be added in SymAmp very soon.
I am planning to add network support for the 3.0. First for an MSX expansion card called "DenYoNet", which is an ethernet card with integrated TCP/IP stack. Don't know how difficult it would be to do Minibooster-based network support, too...

CU,
Prodatron
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: CraigsBar on 11:00, 03 September 14
Thanks Joseman and CraigsBar!
Playcity support will be added in SymAmp very soon.
I am planning to add network support for the 3.0. First for an MSX expansion card called "DenYoNet", which is an ethernet card with integrated TCP/IP stack. Don't know how difficult it would be to do Minibooster-based network support, too...

CU,
Prodatron


Oh and any chance of the plus extended pallette coming back? or (and I guess I am pushing it here) Hardware sprites for the icons and "start" button to increase the colour count ;)



Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 11:27, 03 September 14

Oh and any chance of the plus extended pallette coming back? or (and I guess I am pushing it here) Hardware sprites for the icons and "start" button to increase the colour count ;)
The colour scheme has been carefully chosen, but I think its possible for plus palette to be set. Probably a Plus unique App. As for hardware sprites Prodatron told me that he's been planning since 2004 to put a hardware sprite in for the mouse pointer. As for icons, due to the fact that the icons are 24x24, and you can have any number of the screen, hardward sprites of sixteen 16x16 isnt enough.


What we need is one of the Hardware Guru's to come up with 9 Channel Sound, Real Time Clock, 512k Ram, Mouse Control, Visual Display Processor, Ethernet card :)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 11:43, 03 September 14
Oh and any chance of the plus extended pallette coming back? or (and I guess I am pushing it here) Hardware sprites for the icons and "start" button to increase the colour count ;)
IIRC the Plus mode has been deactivated back then because of compatibility issues with the SYMBiFACE II. I should have a look at it again. Icons can't be done with hardware sprites, as in theory you can have an umlimited amount of it, and they can be partially overlapped by other GUI elements.
Yes, for the mouse pointer that makes sense. And the "start" button could be done with hardware sprites, too (maybe then a nice round one, which is hanging a little bit out of the taskbar :) ).

CU,
Prodatron
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: robcfg on 12:02, 03 September 14
One little question.


I have SymbOS 2.0 installed on CF card I use with my SFII, how should I update it to 2.1 the safe way?


Great job! I have to try also the MSX version on my TurboR. Can I use it from disk or do I need an SD or CF storage solution?
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 12:15, 03 September 14
On the turbo-r you could use the floppy driver as it Is now supported.
(you could also use the sunrise IDE or Megaflash SD)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: CraigsBar on 12:30, 03 September 14
One little question.


I have SymbOS 2.0 installed on CF card I use with my SFII, how should I update it to 2.1 the safe way?

I use an sd-ide drive with my symbiface II so copied the Roms onto my sd card, and the symbos floppy, game. And apps dsks to real floppies. Then...

Booted symbos from Rom.
Created a be folder c:\symbos.21
Copied the files from the 3 discs into that folder.
Flashed the updated Roms with Rom manager
Removed the sd card and USD my Mac to rename c:\symbos to c:\symbos.20 and c:\symbos.21 to c:\symbos

Put the sd card back in the symbiface and rebooted it. Glorious 2.1 goodness.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 13:10, 03 September 14
The most important thing is to keep the old SYMBOS.INI, so your setup will not be deleted (new SymbOS versions are always compatible with old INI files).
Then you can update all files with the newer versions and also flash the new ROMs.

If you have an MSX TurboR (congratulation! :) ) with only the internal floppy drive, you can install SymbOS directly on the same disc, which includes the installer. You just have to delete MSXDOS.SYS and COMMAND.COM first to have enough free space on the disc. Of course it's more fun to have an IDE device or SD card reader :P
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 14:58, 04 September 14
This release is really awesome! I'm also really looking forward to playing with symstudio. Thanks for keeping development on SymbOS going guys!

I'm also really interested in the C API for symbos (http://www.nerlaska.com/msx/symbos_sdk.html), does anyone know if that will get updated or have any contact with the creator at all? I tried to contact him a while ago to ask if was planning to release the source but I didn't get a response. The source would be handy because it has a large (58k!) static library you have to link to that would make your programs pretty big I imagine (unless the SDCC linker is very clever), and the "symbosmake" application is windows only (though it might work through WINE).

I would have thought that a C api would be fairly simple, just a thin layer declaring the addresses of the ASM functions and the types of the arguments and returns, and addresses of any static data and their types - not that I am belittling the amount of work needed to actually do that because it would be quite a feat, but in this case being such a thin layer I don't see why it would need to be closed source. I could be wrong I guess, because maybe the C API wraps more than that and e.g. does many symbos API calls for a single C function, or handles bank switching and/or memory management for you.

I wanted to do some ASM programming on Symbos but couldn't immediately understand how the memory layout/management worked... some tutorials on writing a simple symbos app in ASM would be really handy. Mind you, I find memory management on 8 bits a little tricky anyway, I work daily with x86 (32/64 bit) ASM and in previous jobs have written device drivers, but I'm used to a completely flat memory layout and bank switching makes my brain hurt  ??? . I think if I could dedicate a few days to it I would manage but time is difficult to come by!

Anyway, a C API would be a really great thing to have to cater to all levels of programming - ASM for super low level, C for mid to low level, and SymStudio for high level, but I don't want to be too greedy when I am already spoiled with a choice of ASM and symstudio! Cheers ;D
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 15:38, 04 September 14
Anyway, a C API would be a really great thing to have to cater to all levels of programming - ASM for super low level, C for mid to low level, and SymStudio for high level, but I don't want to be too greedy when I am already spoiled with a choice of ASM and symstudio! Cheers ;D
Can I point out that SymStudio is not a langauge but an IDE, and you can either use SymBasic or ASM from within SymStudio. You can freely mix ASM with SymBasic using CODE Z80 or CODE Basic within the listing

Code: [Select]
e.g
CODE Z80
Ld hl,(MyPos)
Inc hl
Ld (MyPos),hl
CODE BASIC
A=A+Mypos
....

The benefit of using of using SymStudio is that even with ASM it handles the creation of the Forms, Objects,event Processing and One Click compile to .DSK
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: KaosOverride on 16:13, 04 September 14
Awesome!

Time for playing arround with my symbifaced CPC and my MSX2 ;)

Also a PCW IDE interface would be great
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 16:38, 04 September 14
Can I point out that SymStudio is not a langauge but an IDE, and you can either use SymBasic or ASM from within SymStudio. You can freely mix ASM with SymBasic using CODE Z80 or CODE Basic within the listing

Code: [Select]
e.g
CODE Z80
Ld hl,(MyPos)
Inc hl
Ld (MyPos),hl
CODE BASIC
A=A+Mypos
....

The benefit of using of using SymStudio is that even with ASM it handles the creation of the Forms, Objects,event Processing and One Click compile to .DSK


Ah, I didn't realise that you could code ASM in symstudio, that's awesome! Perhaps that will make my learning easier. :D
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 16:41, 04 September 14
Awesome!

Time for playing arround with my symbifaced CPC and my MSX2 ;)

Also a PCW IDE interface would be great


How is your CPC IDE interface going?


I imagine PCW IDE would be very similar?
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 17:03, 04 September 14

Ah, I didn't realise that you could code ASM in symstudio, that's awesome! Perhaps that will make my learning easier. :D
Yes its easy to code for either, or mixed (as Im doing currently on Bat To The Future) together. Just either use the CODE Z80 or CODE Basic directive. Ints defined by the Global Directive will be accessible from Symbasic and Z80.


If you've looked at Symbos coding you'll know that code needs to be sectioned into 3 Areas, and Form structures are not easy to figure out, plus the relocation as the code is compiled twice. Symstudio makes this in effect invisible for the coder. You can have a Z80 Hello World working in a few minutes.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: jibanes on 17:50, 04 September 14
I currently own a HxC and a 6128; would I need anything else to start using symbos 2.1? And what are my options for "mass" storage?
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: CraigsBar on 18:25, 04 September 14
I currently own a HxC and a 6128; would I need anything else to start using symbos 2.1? And what are my options for "mass" storage?
realistically at present you need to source a symbiface 2. IDE controller, 32rom slots, 512k ram and ps/2 mouse. These are not available new anymore, so you need to source one 2nd hand.

Craig
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 18:38, 04 September 14
The RAM/ROM upgrades are easily available (xmem), and you can use a mouse connected to the joystick connector using Bryce's adapter - though it's nowhere near as nice as the "accelerated" symbiface mouse it is compatible with software other than symbos (which the symbos mouse isnt really).

Mass storage is the real issue, although if symbos is booting from ROM and you have an HxC it isn't all that bad. So I'd say get an Xmem and a joystick adapter and have some fun with that.

On the topic of HxC and Symbos, an HxC manager app that allows you to select images to load into the drive would be neat. A direct access mode driver would be really nice too, allowing you to directly use the SD as a storage device.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 19:07, 04 September 14
Thanks for the good explanation!

On the topic of HxC and Symbos, an HxC manager app that allows you to select images to load into the drive would be neat. A direct access mode driver would be really nice too, allowing you to directly use the SD as a storage device.
I didn't know that this is possible with the HxC. Can you load/write sectors directly from/to the SD card? As the HxC is only connected via the FDC and not via the expansion bus? If this would be possible of course I would be very happy to make a SD card driver for the HxC.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: arnoldemu on 19:41, 04 September 14
Thanks for the good explanation!
I didn't know that this is possible with the HxC. Can you load/write sectors directly from/to the SD card? As the HxC is only connected via the FDC and not via the expansion bus? If this would be possible of course I would be very happy to make a SD card driver for the HxC.
@PulkoMandy (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=26) and @SyX (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=324) had a simple design for a SD card that connected to the parallel port and some functions were already written for it. SymbOS could use this?

It's called "CPCSD" I believe.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: radu14m on 20:04, 04 September 14
is the project "CPCSD" still alive ?
it would be great to have for our CPC's such a device that work with Symbios :)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 21:53, 04 September 14
I didn't know that this is possible with the HxC. Can you load/write sectors directly from/to the SD card? As the HxC is only connected via the FDC and not via the expansion bus? If this would be possible of course I would be very happy to make a SD card driver for the HxC.


Yep - see here: http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_drive_emulator/SDCard_HxC_Floppy_Emulator_Direct_Access_mode.pdf (http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_drive_emulator/SDCard_HxC_Floppy_Emulator_Direct_Access_mode.pdf)


You can use it to read/write to the SD, and also to select images.


SymbOS support would be awesome! :D


A bit more advanced but it would also be great to have the two modes coexisting, so that as well as using the SD as mass storage you can e.g. browse to the HxC SD card in the file manager and right click on a disk image stored there and tell symbos to load it into the HxC.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 11:39, 05 September 14

Yep - see here: http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_drive_emulator/SDCard_HxC_Floppy_Emulator_Direct_Access_mode.pdf (http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_drive_emulator/SDCard_HxC_Floppy_Emulator_Direct_Access_mode.pdf)


You can use it to read/write to the SD, and also to select images.


SymbOS support would be awesome! :D


A bit more advanced but it would also be great to have the two modes coexisting, so that as well as using the SD as mass storage you can e.g. browse to the HxC SD card in the file manager and right click on a disk image stored there and tell symbos to load it into the HxC.

Wow, that looks very easy! Did anyone used this on the CPC before?? It makes probably more sense to support this for having a real big mass storage device instead of projects like CPCSD, as the HxC is a common device with good availability. Don't know if I am wrong here? But probably every 2nd CPC "power"user owns a HxC.
You just have to read/write the sector 0 at track 255 to control which SD card sectors you can transfer through sectors 1-8. That's cool. I have to check if I can add this as an option for FDC access (beside "Head 0" and "Head 1" you would have the addition option "HxC SD card"), or if it is necessary to compile a special SymbOS version because of limited code space.
It will be slower than the direct IDE access of the SYMBiFACE II, but still ok for usual stuff (probably not fast enough for playing videos though). Supporting both modes for the same "disc drive" shouldn't be a problem. As soon as you have normal FDC access, it will automatically seek back to a track between 0-79, so there shouldn't be any conflicts.
Selecting images in SymbOS would be another step...

CU,
Prodatron
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 12:20, 05 September 14
Wow, that looks very easy! Did anyone used this on the CPC before??

The HxC floppy emulator manager (http://www.norecess.net/hxc-floppy-emulator-manager.html) by NoRecess (a CPC program for selecting which disk image to load into the emulator) must use it.

Quote from: Prodatron
It makes probably more sense to support this for having a real big mass storage device instead of projects like CPCSD, as the HxC is a common device with good availability. Don't know if I am wrong here? But probably every 2nd CPC "power"user owns a HxC.
You just have to read/write the sector 0 at track 255 to control which SD card sectors you can transfer through sectors 1-8. That's cool.

CPCSD is nice because it is very simple and should cost <10Euro/£. I don't know how fast the HxC would be for mass storage (hopefully not too slow) but the CPCSD is really quite slow IIRC. The HxC is nice because the driver required should be quite small as it does most of the work for you :D !

HxC support would not only be for the CPC, as it should work with basically anything with a floppy interface (so MsX and PCW too).

I have to check if I can add this as an option for FDC access (beside "Head 0" and "Head 1" you would have the addition option "HxC SD card"), or if it is necessary to compile a special SymbOS version because of limited code space.
It will be slower than the direct IDE access of the SYMBiFACE II, but still ok for usual stuff (probably not fast enough for playing videos though). Supporting both modes for the same "disc drive" shouldn't be a problem. As soon as you have normal FDC access, it will automatically seek back to a track between 0-79, so there shouldn't be any conflicts.
Selecting images in SymbOS would be another step...

Selecting images would be the icing on the cake! I hope it fits in the standard version.

There are a couple of things I've been wondering for a while about SymbOS, I wonder if you could answer for me:

1. Is it possible for users to write device drivers for SymbOS, or do you need the full source code?
2. Is there a technical reason why SymbOS can't launch normal AMSDOS programs? Obviously it would nuke SymbOS because all the RAM would be taken over, and you would need to make sure the programs can make ROM calls so it would have to set everything back to "reset" state first, but is this very hard? It would be really neat to be able to do this (particularly if you can load DSK images into the HxC).
3. Have you thought about a suspend/resume function where you copy all the RAM contents and current state to disk for resuming where you left off later? You could even copy it into higher RAM if you have enough spare, then if you ran an AMSDOS program you could use e.g. a multiface to resume symbos later by restoring the RAM contents, or autoboot from the saved RAM image on reset.

Anyway, just some thoughts...
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 13:43, 05 September 14
The HxC floppy emulator manager (http://www.norecess.net/hxc-floppy-emulator-manager.html) by NoRecess (a CPC program for selecting which disk image to load into the emulator) must use it.
Ah, yes, now I remember it!

CPCSD is nice because it is very simple and should cost <10Euro/£.
The price is a good argument indeed. It's probably slower, as the transfer should be bit-based instead of byte-based like the FDC does.

The HxC is nice because the driver required should be quite small as it does most of the work for you :D !
Yes, because the FDC routines, which are still required, are already existing :) (a stand-alone HXC SD card driver would be probably larger than a CPCSD driver, as the FDC routines are more complex)

HxC support would not only be for the CPC, as it should work with basically anything with a floppy interface (so MsX and PCW too).
I didn't had the PCW in mind! That would be so cool to have a PCW with such a mass storage, too! Great idea :)
Regarding the MSX: I never heard about an MSX user using an HxC. They have tons of fast, good and DOS compatible mass storage devices (including drivers to mount DSK images), so that a HxC is not needed here (and they are quite proud about this fact :P ).

1. Is it possible for users to write device drivers for SymbOS, or do you need the full source code?
Currently this is only possible on the MSX. Here it was absolutely necessary, as there are so many different FDC types and IDE/SD card/SCSI mass storage devices.

The reasons why the drivers are currently hardcoded in the CPC version are these:
- all CPCs have the same FDC; during the last years the SYMBiFACE II was the only available and quite actual hardware with a mass storage interface (IDE), where some 100 pieces were produced. So IMHO it was ok only to support these two device types (FDC+IDE)
- a dynamic driver model like on the MSX requires more memory; due to bank switching reasons the driver code has to be placed in the first 64K; this is the most narrow and valuable memory area for the core part of SymbOS; but especially on the CPC the memory is quite limited here, as it also contains the 16K screen (the MSX has its own dedicated video ram)
- SymbOS should be bootable directly from "harddisc" by using the rom version without the need of a floppy disc, so that it's available within a few seconds. But that means, the driver must already be there and can't be loaded during booting (as then Amsdos would be required, which can't access the "harddisc"). On the MSX it's not a problem as MSX-DOS runs fine with FAT-harddiscs and can be used for booting. There could be probably a solution for the CPC, too, but it's more difficult and until today I didn't see an important reason for having dynamic drivers.

2. Is there a technical reason why SymbOS can't launch normal AMSDOS programs? Obviously it would nuke SymbOS because all the RAM would be taken over, and you would need to make sure the programs can make ROM calls so it would have to set everything back to "reset" state first, but is this very hard? It would be really neat to be able to do this (particularly if you can load DSK images into the HxC).
Are you speaking about...
- launching programs from the (emulated) floppy disc: This would require a controlled reset of the CPC and to send the string RUN"filename"[+return] to the keyboard buffer; that would be a stupid but probably simple and working program starter :) Maybe it's possible to install a sniffer, which checks for a special key combination. SymbOS is copied into higher ram and loaded back, as soon as the user is pressing the key combination (and the program doesn't kill or reset the CPC OS).
- launching programs from a FAT partition: This would be only possible, if loading additional parts isn't required later and the whole program is stored in one BIN. Something like this can be already done by using SNApshot files.

3. Have you thought about a suspend/resume function where you copy all the RAM contents and current state to disk for resuming where you left off later? You could even copy it into higher RAM if you have enough spare, then if you ran an AMSDOS program you could use e.g. a multiface to resume symbos later by restoring the RAM contents, or autoboot from the saved RAM image on reset.
Similiar to the first suggestion in 2.) . Well, yes, I thought about this several times. The most interesting part is, how to make a controlled reset of the CPC, so that some "exit"-code remains somewhere in Ram (below the stack probably). A "suspend to harddisc" would be fine, too. It's a little bit tricky. Because of the multitasking environment you have to freeze some parts first, before writing the dump into a file.

CU,
Prodatron
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 14:24, 05 September 14
I didn't had the PCW in mind! That would be so cool to have a PCW with such a mass storage, too! Great idea :) 


I'd love this!


The reasons why the drivers are currently hardcoded in the CPC version are these:
- all CPCs have the same FDC; during the last years the SYMBiFACE II was the only available and quite actual hardware with a mass storage interface (IDE), where some 100 pieces were produced. So IMHO it was ok only to support these two device types (FDC+IDE)
- a dynamic driver model like on the MSX requires more memory; due to bank switching reasons the driver code has to be placed in the first 64K; this is the most narrow and valuable memory area for the core part of SymbOS; but especially on the CPC the memory is quite limited here, as it also contains the 16K screen (the MSX has its own dedicated video ram)
- SymbOS should be bootable directly from "harddisc" by using the rom version without the need of a floppy disc, so that it's available within a few seconds. But that means, the driver must already be there and can't be loaded during booting (as then Amsdos would be required, which can't access the "harddisc"). On the MSX it's not a problem as MSX-DOS runs fine with FAT-harddiscs and can be used for booting. There could be probably a solution for the CPC, too, but it's more difficult and until today I didn't see an important reason for having dynamic drivers.


I don't see a real need for it either and was mostly just curious, though I was also thinking about other hardware too, e.g. the cpcbooster/minibooster. I guess you can just freely access the IO ports to speak to other devices though, since there is no "serial" device type in symbos currently. A symbos terminal emulator would be very nice, and a utility to pick up files shared from a PC would be awesome too.


Are you speaking about...
- launching programs from the (emulated) floppy disc: This would require a controlled reset of the CPC and to send the string RUN"filename"[+return] to the keyboard buffer; that would be a stupid but probably simple and working program starter :) Maybe it's possible to install a sniffer, which checks for a special key combination. SymbOS is copied into higher ram and loaded back, as soon as the user is pressing the key combination (and the program doesn't kill or reset the CPC OS).
- launching programs from a FAT partition: This would be only possible, if loading additional parts isn't required later and the whole program is stored in one BIN. Something like this can be already done by using SNApshot files.


I was thinking of the first suggestion - with HxC support this would work really well. Launching from the hard disc is perhaps not as useful really as it is very similar to the SNApshot loader and is more work.


The SNApshot loader will be very useful for loading from HDD when you have the correct image stored in the HxC. A modified multiface ROM that can save SNA images to hard disc would make this an even more killer hardware/software combo, because you would be able to use SymbOS to launch standard CPC software, save the state and resume symbos from the same place (but for this you would need ROM/RAM upgrade, HxC, mouse interface and an upgraded multiface that doesnt currently exist... I can dream though right?)


Similiar to the first suggestion in 2.) . Well, yes, I thought about this several times. The most interesting part is, how to make a controlled reset of the CPC, so that some "exit"-code remains somewhere in Ram (below the stack probably). A "suspend to harddisc" would be fine, too. It's a little bit tricky. Because of the multitasking environment you have to freeze some parts first, before writing the dump into a file.


I was thinking of a simpler way, an autobooting ROM (like holding down the ctrl key to boot symbos currently) that looks for the RAM dump and loads it for you if it is present. Then you can just reset/power off while holding ctrl, or similar. This might even work for loading from higher RAM if it isn't destroyed on reset (and you have a reset button so dont have to fully power down to restart).


Anyway, back in reality... an HxC mass storage driver will be very cool, especially for PCW owners!

Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 14:26, 05 September 14
Sorry to keep asking obscure questions, but there was something else I wondered for a while: Does symbos support the AY card on the PCW?
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 15:43, 05 September 14
I guess you can just freely access the IO ports to speak to other devices though, since there is no "serial" device type in symbos currently. A symbos terminal emulator would be very nice, and a utility to pick up files shared from a PC would be awesome too.
Some sort of Network drivers are quite high now on the ToDo list :)

The SNApshot loader will be very useful for loading from HDD when you have the correct image stored in the HxC. A modified multiface ROM that can save SNA images to hard disc would make this an even more killer hardware/software combo, because you would be able to use SymbOS to launch standard CPC software, save the state and resume symbos from the same place (but for this you would need ROM/RAM upgrade, HxC, mouse interface and an upgraded multiface that doesnt currently exist... I can dream though right?)
Maybe it's possible to use an alternative Rom for the Multiface? It could copy everything into the higher ram and then SymbOS saves it to harddisc after the next start.

I was thinking of a simpler way, an autobooting ROM (like holding down the ctrl key to boot symbos currently) that looks for the RAM dump and loads it for you if it is present. Then you can just reset/power off while holding ctrl, or similar. This might even work for loading from higher RAM if it isn't destroyed on reset (and you have a reset button so dont have to fully power down to restart).
This idea is even better!

Does symbos support the AY card on the PCW?
In the past I didn't know about the AY card for the PCW. Shouldn't be a big deal to add this to SymAmp. Did the re-production already start? Missed this thread unfortunately...
Push'n'Pop | Amstrad CPC Demoscene | AY8930 interface for Amstrad PCW (http://pushnpop.net/topic-432-1.html)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: CraigsBar on 16:32, 05 September 14
Surely what the pcw is crying out for is a ps2 mouse interface? Sound would be nice for symbols pcw, but to my mind a modern mouse solution is essential. That is what keeps my 9512+ in the loft, no mouse!
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 16:59, 05 September 14
Surely what the pcw is crying out for is a ps2 mouse interface? Sound would be nice for symbols pcw, but to my mind a modern mouse solution is essential. That is what keeps my 9512+ in the loft, no mouse!


Hmm, I was assuming that SymbOS supports the PCW mouse interface (AMX mouse)? But I haven't tried it.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: CraigsBar on 17:06, 05 September 14

Hmm, I was assuming that SymbOS supports the PCW mouse interface (AMX mouse)? But I haven't tried it.
it does, but they are impossible to find. And bloody uncomfortable to use if you do. So I don't have one.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 17:08, 05 September 14
I wrote a driver for the Kempston and the AMX mouse. Unfortunately I never could test one of these with real hardware (as I don't own it). One is at least working in the XJoyce emulator (but I would have to figure out which one :D ).
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 17:12, 05 September 14
Some sort of Network drivers are quite high now on the ToDo list :) 
I think maybe getting the CPC to do TCP/IP is over kill (would it cope?) so maybe supporting hardware that can do the TCP/IP for you is a good idea? Then you ask the hardware to negotiate a connection for you, before using it like a dumb point to point connection (like a serial line). And perhaps also a "dumb" driver for direct point to point connections between two computers (like a serial line to your PC). I saw this (http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/WiFi-Serial-Transceiver-Module-w-ESP8266-p-1994.html) recently, a tiny and very cheap ($8!!) wifi->serial module that uses AT commands to connect to a hotspot (or act as one) and set up a TCP/IP connection to a server. Anyway... a lot of thought needs to go into it you probably have many ideas already.
Maybe it's possible to use an alternative Rom for the Multiface? It could copy everything into the higher ram and then SymbOS saves it to harddisc after the next start.
Yes, you can make an alternate ROM for the multiface (in theory). It's a great idea to use the higher RAM because then it doesn't need to know how to talk to a mass storage device - nice! I don't know if you saw that the multiface has now been fully reverse engineered, so hopefully someone will make a replacement at some time... if it was a more popular device I guess support would be more likely.
In the past I didn't know about the AY card for the PCW. Shouldn't be a big deal to add this to SymAmp. Did the re-production already start? Missed this thread unfortunately...Push'n'Pop | Amstrad CPC Demoscene | AY8930 interface for Amstrad PCW (http://pushnpop.net/topic-432-1.html)
That would be really great! The hardware hasn't been produced yet, but I'm hopeful it wont be too long.Cheers :)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 17:17, 05 September 14
it does, but they are impossible to find. And bloody uncomfortable to use if you do. So I don't have one.


I'm pretty sure it uses the same protocol as Amiga/Acorn etc mice, so you should be able to use one of the PS/2 or USB adapters for those systems with some wiring added. But yes, being hard to find I guess a replacement would be a good idea... the problem is the same as for other PCW expansions though - there aren't many users. I'm lucky enough to own one already...


I wrote a driver for the Kempston and the AMX mouse. Unfortunately I never could test one of these with real hardware (as I don't own it). One is at least working in the XJoyce emulator (but I would have to figure out which one :D ).


I will give this a try next time I get one of my PCWs out!
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 17:21, 05 September 14

In the past I didn't know about the AY card for the PCW. Shouldn't be a big deal to add this to SymAmp. Did the re-production already start? Missed this thread unfortunately...
Push'n'Pop | Amstrad CPC Demoscene | AY8930 interface for Amstrad PCW (http://pushnpop.net/topic-432-1.html)


Another thought about the mouse situation - the AY interface has a joystick connection, so the best thing would be to add support for the joystick on there to use as a mouse (as if I didnt ask for enough already  ??? ). That should also work with Bryce's USB mouse adapter for the CPC!
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 18:52, 05 September 14
I think maybe getting the CPC to do TCP/IP is over kill (would it cope?) so maybe supporting hardware that can do the TCP/IP for you is a good idea? Then you ask the hardware to negotiate a connection for you, before using it like a dumb point to point connection (like a serial line). And perhaps also a "dumb" driver for direct point to point connections between two computers (like a serial line to your PC). I saw this (http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/WiFi-Serial-Transceiver-Module-w-ESP8266-p-1994.html) recently, a tiny and very cheap ($8!!) wifi->serial module that uses AT commands to connect to a hotspot (or act as one) and set up a TCP/IP connection to a server. Anyway... a lot of thought needs to go into it you probably have many ideas already.Yes, you can make an alternate ROM for the multiface (in theory). It's a great idea to use the higher RAM because then it doesn't need to know how to talk to a mass storage device - nice! I don't know if you saw that the multiface has now been fully reverse engineered, so hopefully someone will make a replacement at some time... if it was a more popular device I guess support would be more likely.That would be really great! The hardware hasn't been produced yet, but I'm hopeful it wont be too long.Cheers :)
I will first make an implementation of a network demon for the DenYoNet ethernet card of the MSX, which is using the W5100 chip. It already contains the TCP/IP stack, so the Z80 shouldn't be stressed too much. The API of the network demon should be based on the one, which was developed and finished by Dr.Zed in 2007 for the SymbiFACE 3 prototype. As this was already working together with some applications (SymFTP, a graphical FTP client and an alpha version a SymTel, a SymShell-based telnet client), that should make sense. Maybe then it's possible to provide similiar/compatible services for other network-like hardware like you suggested.

Good idea with the joystick support of the AY-PCW card. Maybe I have some luck and get one, too. Just asked in the forum...
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: CraigsBar on 20:05, 05 September 14
Whatever happened to the symbiface 3, I'd have killed for that!
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: KaosOverride on 03:28, 07 September 14

How is your CPC IDE interface going?


I imagine PCW IDE would be very similar?

I'm waiting for some chips to arrive. My mistake I mixed HC type chips with LS ones, so the HC didn't read "1" or "0" at correct levels... It's going slow but I have the intention to make it work.

While waiting chips, I have made on screen a MX4 version board to plug wit the X-MEM so it should be a nice Symbcombo ;)

Also when the IDE is finished I have some Wiznet 5100 modules to try to attach to the CPC so any development to the DenYoNet MSX device should be recycled for the CPC :) No RAM mode for it to work on CPC, but has a nice I/O port access mode with autoincrement reading so not much speed will be lost, I think...
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: SyX on 05:04, 07 September 14
is the project "CPCSD" still alive?
Yes, Pulko made a new version of the interface using the expansion port, and a few months ago he made a Compact Flash board (http://pulkomandy.tk/projects/avrstuff/wiki/CPC-CompactFlash) using similar i/o ports to the Symbiface IDE and i patched bonniedos to use his board. Then he asked to the bonniedos author to release this patched version with this CF interface, but the author didn't give permission for it.

We could have released a diff for anybody could patch it privately, but instead we decided to start to work in an opensource FAT filesystem in rom (using the FatFs project (http://elm-chan.org/fsw/ff/00index_e.html) as base)... but it doesn't help that in this exact moment my free time for cpc is 0 (work + portuguese lessons + university in portuguese).
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: TFM on 05:26, 07 September 14
Yes, Pulko made a new version of the interface using the expansion port, and a few months ago he made a Compact Flash board (http://pulkomandy.tk/projects/avrstuff/wiki/CPC-CompactFlash) using similar i/o ports to the Symbiface IDE and i patched bonniedos to use his board. Then he asked to the bonniedos author to release this patched version with this CF interface, but the author didn't give permission for it.


It's a pity.  :( 
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 02:16, 08 September 14
Great job! I have to try also the MSX version on my TurboR. Can I use it from disk or do I need an SD or CF storage solution?
Here is a video about installing and testing it on a TurboR:
(MSX) Real MSX SymbOS 2.1 setup - YouTube (http://youtu.be/TwNmMczbZ8w)
Maybe that helps? As said before you can just install it on the disc itself.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Munchausen on 15:18, 16 September 14
I wrote a driver for the Kempston and the AMX mouse. Unfortunately I never could test one of these with real hardware (as I don't own it). One is at least working in the XJoyce emulator (but I would have to figure out which one :D ).


Do you have a PCW (8256 or 8512)? I could lend you my mouse adapter if you would like to get it working with symbos?


BTW I am really excited about all the things here, especially HxC support, so please let us know of any updates (or if you want any testing done).
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: TFM on 18:20, 16 September 14
I had the chance to test symbos 2.1 with 1 mb of ram. And it did boot correctly. But I couldn't do more detail tests, because my Monitor died and now I gotta see what comes next.

Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 18:52, 16 September 14
I have some Wiznet 5100 modules to try to attach to the CPC so any development to the DenYoNet MSX device should be recycled for the CPC :) No RAM mode for it to work on CPC, but has a nice I/O port access mode with autoincrement reading so not much speed will be lost, I think...
That sounds really cool! An ethernet card with own TCP/IP stack is one of the last missing hardware for the CPC I think...

Do you have a PCW (8256 or 8512)? I could lend you my mouse adapter if you would like to get it working with symbos?
BTW I am really excited about all the things here, especially HxC support, so please let us know of any updates (or if you want any testing done).
Yes, I have a PCW8512. I didn't switch it on since 2007, so I will probably have to exchange the drive belts and try to dig out some 3" discs for it first. Thank you very much for the offer, I will let you know as soon as my PCW is running again!

@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179): Thanks for testing! But wasn't it crashing in the past on a real CPC? I never had access to this hardware mod made by Yarek, so I could only test it with WinApe.

CU,
Prodatron
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: TFM on 20:50, 16 September 14
@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179): Thanks for testing! But wasn't it crashing in the past on a real CPC? I never had access to this hardware mod made by Yarek, so I could only test it with WinApe.

It's a pain in the XX to develop without the real hardware as we know. Yes, there was an issue before, but now in version 2.1 everything seems to run pretty well. You did a really good job!  :)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: RockRiver on 17:41, 20 October 14
Please don't forget future AYC file support on SymAMP  8)
Thanks for keep our 8bit & best GUI alive
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 18:41, 20 October 14
Please don't forget future AYC file support on SymAMP  8)
Yes, so many additional formats have to be added to SymAmp, like AYC, Dual-PT3 (for the Playcity) and Moonblaster (for the MSX)...  :o :)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Jckf on 03:55, 12 November 14
Decided to give this a try, since it's one of the few cool things you can use on a stock 6128, and wanted to point a few things out / get some help.


The documentation states that machines with only 128kBs of RAM should disable the wallpaper and screensaver after first booting. This is not possible, as the system does not have enough memory available to open the display settings. My work-around was to immediately remove the disc once the desktop showed, so that the wallpaper did not get a chance to load, but this is only that, a work-around.


The other problem I had/have is that even though the system settings let you change the boot disc and system path, the system does not want to behave properly when booted from drive B. It will fail to find applications, control panel, and so on. Time for another work-around: Short pins 11 and 12 on the B drives cable to make it behave as A. Forget this one. The changes in system settings work. I must have done something wrong the first time around.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 20:49, 12 November 14
Thanks for trying! I am glad that you figured out how to save the system path/boot drive settings.

Decided to give this a try, since it's one of the few cool things you can use on a stock 6128, and wanted to point a few things out / get some help.


The documentation states that machines with only 128kBs of RAM should disable the wallpaper and screensaver after first booting. This is not possible, as the system does not have enough memory available to open the display settings. My work-around was to immediately remove the disc once the desktop showed, so that the wallpaper did not get a chance to load, but this is only that, a work-around.

Yes, it seems, that this note is too much hidden:
http://www.symbos.de/download.htm#marke3 (http://www.symbos.de/download.htm#marke3)
"Important information for CPCs and MSXs with ONLY 128K ram! [...] CPC users have to delete the SYMBOS.INI file on the disc when booting the first time. SymbOS will then start with a minimum configuration."

I am not sure, but maybe the next version will have an installer for the CPC version, too (currently MSX only). That could probably make sense, as you won't have such situations anymore...
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Jckf on 21:00, 12 November 14
Ah. Then there are two sets of instructions for the same operation. Because one calls for a right-click on the desktop.


(https://www.dropbox.com/s/fy26zouem7t517x/Screenshot%202014-11-12%2020.00.00.png?dl=1)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 21:04, 12 November 14
Ops, I didn't update the SymbOS-Doc-OS.txt since 2006 (1.0 release)... Thanks for the hint!
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: TFM on 00:14, 13 November 14
Gave Tetris a go, but it crashed. Is it a problem of WinCPC?

Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 00:41, 13 November 14
Gave Tetris a go, but it crashed. Is it a problem of WinCPC?
Not sure why, but it will be an issue with symbasic which edoz used and not symbos. Symstudio is still not at a final release, which should happen this side of christmas. Its actually hard to stop Edoz coding apps even when the language isn't finished and still buggy, but its also fixing the issues as we go. Hopefully this next release will solve all of the known issues, plus add a whole load more goodies.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: TFM on 00:49, 13 November 14
Hi! Do you have a link to the command list of Symbasic?
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 01:02, 13 November 14
Not sure why, but it will be an issue with symbasic which edoz used and not symbos. Symstudio is still not at a final release, which should happen this side of christmas. Its actually hard to stop Edoz coding apps even when the language isn't finished and still buggy, but its also fixing the issues as we go. Hopefully this next release will solve all of the known issues, plus add a whole load more goodies.
Actually I think this might be Edoz's fault, and I never spotted it before. Perhaps this is the issue with cross platform development, in that he's coded for the MSX which has 16 colours. Problem with that is that every fourth colour is black on the CPC. So blocks are coming down the screen that are effectively invisible. Needs changing, but it has nothing to do with Symbos or Winape.


One of the issues I think Symbos will face is that MSX coders will code purely for MSX, CPC for CPC, Enterprise for Enterprise. Most will work fine, but some care has to be paid in the design process to make sure it works for everyone. The problem being that many MSX user dont care if it works on the CPC, and likewise the CPC community doesnt care if it works for the MSX either. This is mostly the case for palette and hardware, or if people design for Turbo R speed on other machine etc
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 01:13, 13 November 14
Hi! Do you have a link to the command list of Symbasic?
Yes, but its changing as I'm trying to go in a more modern OO looking direction. For instance currently I use commands such as RefreshObj Button1_Id to get Symbos to Redraw an Control. I'm altering this to Button1.Refresh()
This change is mainly as I'm aware that a new language is a large time expenditure for people and if you can type Button1 or the name of a control you created in the form and be given the options auomatically its better than having to remember a few hundred commands.
Im trying to use this throughout the language. It reads nicer, looks more modern. Unfortunately as an oldskool coder the design of the language to start with wasnt what it should have been.


There is probably a release of Symstudio final at the end of this month hopefully
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: TFM on 19:23, 14 November 14
About the 16 colors... Would it help if instead of repeating the 4 colors 4 times one would use the four colors and then 12 times a mix of the four colors...wait... ok, getting tight... mixes out of 2 or 3 colors would do. But that's probably not so easy to implement.

Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 22:55, 14 November 14
About the 16 colors... Would it help if instead of repeating the 4 colors 4 times one would use the four colors and then 12 times a mix of the four colors...wait... ok, getting tight... mixes out of 2 or 3 colors would do. But that's probably not so easy to implement.

This is how SymbOS handles colours (2,4,16):
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/facts/coloursheme.gif)
Not sure what you mean about "repeating 4 colours"? The colours are sorted to have black/white (mode 2) and greyscale (mode 1) results if you cut the upper bits. This makes it possible to display all graphics on platform independant displays (CPC+PCW+Enterprise -> 2 colours, CPC+MSX+Enterprise -> 4 colours, MSX -> 16 colours) with different colour depth in a very optimized way :)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: TFM on 23:23, 14 November 14
I referred to Trebmints post.


EDIT: Try to explain myself...  :) ... CPC has 2 and 4 colors mode, but MSX has also the 16 colors mode. My idea was to "simulate" the 16 color mode on CPC by f.e. dithering, mixing the available colors.

Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 23:34, 14 November 14
Sure, I know.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: MacDeath on 23:40, 14 November 14
What about the dithered palette in hight resolution ?

PC1512 style or NEC PC8801 style (or even Pasopia7 style)...
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 20:26, 03 December 14
Gave Tetris a go, but it crashed. Is it a problem of WinCPC?
I found out that it is a bug in Tetris. If you press the start button, Tetris does not check,if it is already running. I will fix it.
 
 
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 20:33, 03 December 14
About Tetris. Tetris is ok with 4 color mode. But there is also a bug in Tetris using 2 color mode. I will fix this also. And there was a bug using keyboard keys to move the mouse. I noticed it on the enterprise. But this is fixed already. I always try to make it platform independent.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Morri on 01:10, 11 December 14
Yes, but its changing as I'm trying to go in a more modern OO looking direction. For instance currently I use commands such as RefreshObj Button1_Id to get Symbos to Redraw an Control. I'm altering this to Button1.Refresh()
This change is mainly as I'm aware that a new language is a large time expenditure for people and if you can type Button1 or the name of a control you created in the form and be given the options auomatically its better than having to remember a few hundred commands.
Im trying to use this throughout the language. It reads nicer, looks more modern. Unfortunately as an oldskool coder the design of the language to start with wasnt what it should have been.


There is probably a release of Symstudio final at the end of this month hopefully
Hi @Trebmint (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=238) , I was just wondering if there was an update for this release (not trying to rush you or anything :D ). I just have a new game idea (I'm not a coder, I have just been using game creators i.e. Sprites Alive) and I reckon this would be the perfect solution.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 01:52, 11 December 14
Hi @Trebmint (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=238) , I was just wondering if there was an update for this release (not trying to rush you or anything :D ). I just have a new game idea (I'm not a coder, I have just been using game creators i.e. Sprites Alive) and I reckon this would be the perfect solution.
Hey, don't worry this is still on going. There will be a release around new year which is a modern and complete update of symbasic, but it will still be within the symbos structure which isn't ideal for games - meaning mainly its designed for windows/forms/crossplatform - though simple games run quite happily.
There are a number of steps until what I've got planned for a final version which is very much in the mould of a 2d version of Unity for z80, and this doesnt have a timescale yet. It also depends a lot on prodatron and his work with symbos. I would imagine Symbos 3.0 will be out by then and Symstudio/Unify will be supporting it. We will have to see where we are when I release the final symstudio. Certainly I have plans to make a symbos VM for Windows,Mac,Linux,Android & IOS, which integrates Unify as a direct development system



Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Morri on 02:55, 11 December 14
Thanks for the update. I think my game idea is simple enough hopefully to work in symbasic but perhaps I should get your thoughts before going too far.

It will be a mode 1 game, require no animation / scrolling and movement will be by 16 pixel blocks. The screen will be a 10 x 10 grid, each grid having a 16x16 pixel sprite = 160x160 total (the player will move from grid to grid, left/right/up/down only) with some sort of status panel to the side showing health, items collected or something similar.
It would need to store data for multiple screens as the character leaves one screen it would appear on a new one.
Simple AI for enemies, who also move grid by grid - if player is below you, move 1 grid down towards player.

What do you think the limits of symbasic will be? Size of files possible, number of variables, number of sprites able to be stored etc...?
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 11:40, 11 December 14
Thanks for the update. I think my game idea is simple enough hopefully to work in symbasic but perhaps I should get your thoughts before going too far.

It will be a mode 1 game, require no animation / scrolling and movement will be by 16 pixel blocks. The screen will be a 10 x 10 grid, each grid having a 16x16 pixel sprite = 160x160 total (the player will move from grid to grid, left/right/up/down only) with some sort of status panel to the side showing health, items collected or something similar.
It would need to store data for multiple screens as the character leaves one screen it would appear on a new one.
Simple AI for enemies, who also move grid by grid - if player is below you, move 1 grid down towards player.

What do you think the limits of symbasic will be? Size of files possible, number of variables, number of sprites able to be stored etc...?
Sounds very feasible even with symbasic as it is. The more symbos developers and apps the better:) I plan to have a symbos development competition early 2015.
As for size... well apps can be 63k, but you can reserve as many 16k banks for data after that as you need, and the new yet to be implemented GFX library allows for 64k of quick graphics with some very nice effects
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 16:12, 11 December 14
@Morri (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=95): That sounds very nice and realistic! :) In this case SymBasic should be best for it. Handling 100 objects on the playfield + some additional controls isn't a problem at all. And I really like such kind of games!
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 16:22, 11 December 14
Yes! Think it is already possible with the current release.
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: radu14m on 20:01, 11 December 14
what about using screen mode 2 for the symbos ?


Should look like this ( from batman demo ).
(http://s7.postimg.org/6y13ulksr/batman.jpg)

Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Morri on 21:00, 11 December 14
Sounds very feasible even with symbasic as it is. The more symbos developers and apps the better:) I plan to have a symbos development competition early 2015.
As for size... well apps can be 63k, but you can reserve as many 16k banks for data after that as you need, and the new yet to be implemented GFX library allows for 64k of quick graphics with some very nice effects
Competition sounds cool! Hopefully a good way to motivate people to develop for the platform. While I'm waiting for the final release. I might start playing around with symstudio to get myself acquainted to it.
@Morri (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=95): That sounds very nice and realistic! :) In this case SymBasic should be best for it. Handling 100 objects on the playfield + some additional controls isn't a problem at all. And I really like such kind of games!
Glad you like the idea @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13), if it all works out the game idea will be turn-based similar to turnament (Turnament - A Free Game by Nitrome (http://www.nitrome.com/games/turnament/)) which I think is an amazing game. My version would be a lot simplier and I'd like to aim more for an RPG setting similar to my Eternal Light / retro Zelda games. I already have the tileset (not my own but from the opengameart forum) and mocked up an example screen before I went to bed last night using RGAS.

(http://s11.postimg.org/dat2deigz/Screenshot_1.png)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Trebmint on 22:09, 11 December 14
The main thing to remember is that symbos development isnt just CPC, so that means you can work the images in 4 and 16 colours
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 15:49, 12 December 14
what about using screen mode 2 for the symbos ?
Should look like this ( from batman demo ).

Yes, SymbOS looks like the batman demo in Mode 2  :P

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 15:55, 12 December 14
if it all works out the game idea will be turn-based similar to turnament (Turnament - A Free Game by Nitrome (http://www.nitrome.com/games/turnament/)) which I think is an amazing game. My version would be a lot simplier and I'd like to aim more for an RPG setting similar to my Eternal Light / retro Zelda games. I already have the tileset (not my own but from the opengameart forum) and mocked up an example screen before I went to bed last night using RGAS.
Very cool! Trebmint can probably tell you more about the Tile editor of SymStudio. It has been created for exactly such stuff. Maybe this helps you to get an idea about it:
A sample symstudio project - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IntkHHF5-Uo)
Symstudio project part 2 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_JiXsYWbAQ)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Prodatron on 15:27, 01 January 15
2015 with SymbOS - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwIbGLEEY6k)

Happy new year 2015 :)
Title: Re: SymbOS 2.1 Final released
Post by: Edoz(MSX) on 11:43, 02 January 15
I created a small update for Tetris. (I solved some small bugs)

DOWNLOAD LINK TO TETRIS V1.1 (http://members.home.nl/evanzanten/msxorg/tetris.zip)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/1fh4y0.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2447gqw.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/wtizx2.jpg)