Author Topic: Greece  (Read 6671 times)

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Offline Gryzor

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Greece
« on: 13:13, 03 November 11 »
So... no comments yet? :D

Offline MaV

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Re: Greece
« Reply #1 on: 13:26, 03 November 11 »
So... no comments yet? :D

You seem to be happy, so you might know more about it.

The way it's presented here in the media, Papandreou's decision for a referendum came as a complete surprise. Once the hag and the clown have recollected themselves, expect repercussions from their side. So, you might say, the problems have just begun (but then I'm a pessimist).
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Greece
« Reply #2 on: 13:31, 03 November 11 »
Not happy, just acting aloof. Nobody knows how this thing is going to go down, except for one thing - there was no way they would allow us to vote on the original question. Just a day later they switched it to "Do you want to stay in the EZ and EU or not?". A farce.

The government is going down today or tomorrow (unless the sun decides not to come up), what comes afterwards is anyone's guess. The most probable course of events will be that we'll continue down the same road a bit more until there's a big upheaval, maybe in a few short months, that will bring Chtulhu - errr, chaos to the streets.

Offline MaV

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Re: Greece
« Reply #3 on: 14:02, 03 November 11 »
The government is going down today or tomorrow (unless the sun decides not to come up), what comes afterwards is anyone's guess. The most probable course of events will be that we'll continue down the same road a bit more until there's a big upheaval, maybe in a few short months, that will bring Chtulhu - errr, chaos to the streets.

Oh, a state without government can work. The best example is Belgium (IIRC), who since the beginning of the "crisis" doesn't have a government and yet it does quite ok; certainly not worse than with one. :D

My fear is that any steps toward leaving the Euro or the Euro zone will be made painful for Greece as a warning to others. The continuous haggling over Greece's debts has proven that they're going to great lengths to keep the current order of things.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Greece
« Reply #4 on: 14:08, 03 November 11 »
Well, I've always discussed about Belgium. While it seems to be working ok, my view is that when you got a state with no government it means that democracy has utterly failed, since it is not needed any more. It's a sham of a way to run things. What's more, Belgium is much calmer than Greece.

You're right about worrying for the future handling of Greece. This, of course, would depend on how Greece would play its cards. As a sovereign state it holds most of the aces, and with some clever handling Greece could actually become the example of how nations should deal with the markets. This, however, would take some politicians with balls, something we sorely lack.

*breaking news* Head of the opposition just (literally - as I was typing this) announced that they're willing to form a coalition government with the leading party and sign for last week's agreement. Something like this would patch things for now, but we'll find it in front of us a few months down the road, as I previously wrote, as conditions will keep on worsening.

Offline TFM

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Re: Greece
« Reply #5 on: 17:17, 03 November 11 »
My only comment is, that I'm really sad for the Greek _PEOPLE_.
 
They have to suffer now due to the deeds of Papandreou and his bunch of corrupt bandits. I wished, the people would kick them out and reinvent democracy again - this time a working version please, where everybody is responsible (and I wished that for a couple of other countries too).
 
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Greece
« Reply #6 on: 18:15, 03 November 11 »
(Right this moment our glorious PM is verbally lambasting the banking and financial system. Oh, the fun!)

Papandreou is certainly not the only one. He just turned out to be much, much worse than anyone expected. I just hope that the Greek people don't forget, in view of how bad he is, how bad the other guys are. Tumultuous times ahead. There's a little hope that it'll be the beginning of something better, even if we have to suffer a lot for a while.

Offline villain

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Re: Greece
« Reply #7 on: 18:33, 03 November 11 »

They have to suffer now due to the deeds of Papandreou and his bunch of corrupt bandits.


Do you really think the situation in Germany or the EU in general is completely different? Just take a look at the current jobs of Gerhard (aka Gasherd) Schröder, Günter Verheugen or Rezzo Schlauch. Of course it doesn´t look like corruption, it´s called lobbying. Take the cancellation of the "Atomausstieg" by Angie & friends or the situation of the pharma industry in Germany. Interesting examples how lobbying works and is able to protect the interests of big companies and constraint small or alternative companies in an open competition...

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Greece
« Reply #8 on: 19:17, 03 November 11 »
I completely agree. Greece is a symptom, not a cause or the decease itself.

At the same time, the world is in awe at how Germany managed to prevent a rise in unemployment during the recent crisis and nobody says that: congratulations, unions agreed to lower wages etc, which means that someone else pocketed the money. Is this development? Methinks not. Let alone the fact that economists are doubting whether employment stayed at the same levels not due to the elasticity of work/wages but other factors. So we have a nation that has agreed to lower its standards in order for the big companies and the banking sector to grab an even bigger slice of the pie.

What bothers me is the misinformation circulating everywhere, from the yellow-est of tabloids to Merkel herself, about Greece and its people. This is probably the worst thing in this whole crisis since, even if things do get better, the reputation will linger.

Offline TFM

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Re: Greece
« Reply #9 on: 00:54, 04 November 11 »

Do you really think the situation in Germany or the EU in general is completely different?

Not at all, but at the moment I'm just sorry for the Greek people, and I'm sure they will overcome the crisis - and create something better in future.
 
 
.... the situation of the pharma industry in Germany. ...

Usually people aren't interrested in the truth... but since you bring the topic up, this may interrest you:
Jane Burgermeister - Vienna, 20.09.2009#
 
« Last Edit: 00:59, 04 November 11 by TFM/FS »
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Greece
« Reply #10 on: 12:03, 04 November 11 »
I was thinking, at least there was something short and beautiful in all this: for a single day, a small people was given the opportunity to speak its mind. And the world freaked out.

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Greece
« Reply #11 on: 13:36, 04 November 11 »
I'm unable to comprehend what all this means, the media here are only producing a vague picture on the situation, some are saying register the whole country as bankrupt which is stupid, cause their implying the everyone in Greece should be made to suffer!  :o  And only certain media informants are reporting this bit of news, doesn't seem to be on the mainstream channels and if it is, I certainly haven't noticed it. News reports like this just don't work for me cause it's opinions, bit of news here and a bit of news there without drawing the complete picture, it's a very convenient incomplete jigsaw puzzle they've generated.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Greece
« Reply #12 on: 16:54, 04 November 11 »
The country *is* bankrupt, in the sense that the accumulated debt cannot be paid back. Yet it's sort of a Weekend at Bernie's thing, going around with a corpse and trying to fool ourselves won't make Bernie wake up any time soon. The problem is realizing it and burying the body so we can get over with the stench before body parts start falling.

Have no idea about media in Australia - maybe it's the time difference or something, but after a short, very intense hours when it appears we were going to have a referendum things went back to normal (i.e. Freaky as Hell). But in Europe it was all over the place as far as I could see. And for Obama to talk about it, well, it must have done something.

[EDIT] Italy went to the IMF. Ooh...
« Last Edit: 17:07, 04 November 11 by Gryzor »

Offline MaV

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Re: Greece
« Reply #13 on: 17:07, 04 November 11 »
But in Europe it was all over the place as far as I could see. And for Obama to talk about it, well, it must have done something.

I certainly had the impression that after all those mind-numbing news, someone at last wanted to take action. Even if that would be too little, too late.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Greece
« Reply #14 on: 17:08, 04 November 11 »
What are you referring to?

Offline rexbeng

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Re: Greece
« Reply #15 on: 18:08, 04 November 11 »
Well, from one point of view you could say that Greece is globally leading the political developments again, after 2500 years or so. This has to be of some worth, no?  :D


But sadly, it is really getting more clear by the minute, at least for those of us who are not really deep into one of those traditional political "clans" that rule the country for 30 years or so, that political ideals and arguments really come down to being equivalent to fanboism.


Papandreou is a sad joke, unfortunately. Not that anyone in the school of 300 in the parliament really excels at something, but the man in charge must be really retarded. I see no other explanation for all this. ???


rb
« Last Edit: 18:44, 04 November 11 by rexbeng »

Offline MaV

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Re: Greece
« Reply #16 on: 20:53, 04 November 11 »
What are you referring to?

Well, I was getting tired news where meetings of politicians with no plan are trying to hold to the status quo. A referendum seemed like a fresh wind for once. I can't fathom Papandreou's motives, but it seemed the right thing to do. Imagine a meeting room where all are asleep, and somebody shouts "Wake up!".
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Offline TFM

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Re: Greece
« Reply #17 on: 21:32, 04 November 11 »
The people should have been asked years ago. All european people. (If we want the euro or not).
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Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Greece
« Reply #18 on: 23:49, 04 November 11 »
The country *is* bankrupt, in the sense that the accumulated debt cannot be paid back. Yet it's sort of a Weekend at Bernie's thing, going around with a corpse and trying to fool ourselves won't make Bernie wake up any time soon. The problem is realizing it and burying the body so we can get over with the stench before body parts start falling.

Have no idea about media in Australia - maybe it's the time difference or something, but after a short, very intense hours when it appears we were going to have a referendum things went back to normal (i.e. Freaky as Hell). But in Europe it was all over the place as far as I could see. And for Obama to talk about it, well, it must have done something.

The bankrupt aspect is clear, I just don't understand what that means for the people!  :( 
I wouldn't want to leave my country because it was bankrupt, though if they were going to start asking hard working people who get paid little to pay up, then there's something seriously wrong and might have to move out!  :(
I blame media in part cause they turn a blind eye in some cases as to what's going on over there, though their snippet stories are no match for the kind of shows which go through all the detail giving you the full picture!
 
At the end of the day though I think it's simply greed which is a driving force, which divides the wealthy from the poor. I can sort of picture this based on the prices on food around the Bakeries in our area. In some cases I'm spending $2 more for the same things from one Bakery on the rich side of town as opposed to another Bakery just up the road!  :o
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Offline Bryce

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Re: Greece
« Reply #19 on: 00:04, 05 November 11 »
I blame media in part cause they turn a blind eye

Of course they do! Let me explain it in Basic:

5 REM Reality
10 Media = "Big Powerful Corporation"
20 Headline = "Big Powerful Corporations are fucking you over, controlling your Government and taking your money!"
30 If Media has half a brain Then Don't tell the people you're fucking that you're do it Else They'll revolt
40 Goto 10

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Offline TFM

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Re: Greece
« Reply #20 on: 00:56, 05 November 11 »
31 IF Reality=find people which are not too stuped THEN people=revolution
32 BE prepared for Reality=Revolution
33 SO prepare ARMY=righting Revolution
 
I'm bad in BASIC ;-)
 
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Re: Greece
« Reply #21 on: 01:01, 05 November 11 »
In America your line 33 could be mis-interpreted as a call to revolution :D

Be careful, the FBI might be paying you a visit. If you get a knock on the door tonight, I'd head for the rear exit :D

Bryce.

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Greece
« Reply #22 on: 01:16, 05 November 11 »
So Line 20 should actually read:
 
Code: [Select]
20 Headline = Media + " are <blanking> you over, controlling your Government and taking your money!"
I usually say there's only one way of <blanking> you over, though I've seen some instances where Media have <blanked> on false stories!  :laugh:
 
Special Agent Dana Scully can pay me a visit!  :laugh:
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Offline MacDeath

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Re: Greece
« Reply #23 on: 02:12, 05 November 11 »
To me the problem with europe is that it can't unite if you don't get the whole europe to vote the same day for the same thing...

You know ? "universal suffrage"
With this, you bypass the politician, one european = one european... no country can then stop the whole will of europe...


I mean, in Democration you don't get a whole 100% vote on only one thing... here it would be the same, and as peoples from every country would vote for or against (any topic) it is not "oh this country stopped the whole processus"


If we are to get a proper constitution, it have to be voted this way...
It is the only way to get 1 european = 1 european, hence a proper unicity.



Sorry I was just passing by...

Also, what a mess...

But it is not that better in France actually, i personnally struggle with money problem... :(

Offline TFM

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Re: Greece
« Reply #24 on: 06:37, 05 November 11 »
In America your line 33 could be mis-interpreted as a call to revolution :D

Be careful, the FBI might be paying you a visit. If you get a knock on the door tonight, I'd head for the rear exit :D

Bryce.

Actually I've been just tired and my typing, well... my fingers just slipped I guess... there is that big white car with back windows at the other side of the street. Hmm, while I type this the car is driving away and just now I got an error message from Antivir (which shut down unexpected!). I better restart the Laptop, wait it knocks at the backdoor...
 
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