Not sure where I found the link, but I'm sure if there are any other owners of an Enterprise machine (sweeeet!) this will come in handy:
Enterprise 64 & 128 - Games - [BAS] (TOSEC-v2011-10-15)
Enterprise 64 & 128 - Games - [COM] (TOSEC-v2011-10-15)
Enterprise 64 & 128 - Games - [DTF] (TOSEC-v2011-10-15)
Enterprise 64 & 128 - Games - [IMG] (TOSEC-v2011-10-15)
Enterprise 64 & 128 - Games - [Multipart] (TOSEC-v2011-10-16)
Get it here! (http://www.filesonic.gr/file/3934009915)
Very useful Thanks - I think its time to get my Enterprise out of the attic.
A computer with in-built Joystick can't be wrong, alos provided Half the game on it are straight CPC-port...
which is far less lame as straight speccy ports...
While considered shity on CPC, Airwolf was a big thing on this... ;D
Quote from: MacDeath on 04:26, 20 November 11
A computer with in-built Joystick can't be wrong, alos provided Half the game on it are straight CPC-port...
which is far less lame as straight speccy ports...
While considered shity on CPC, Airwolf was a big thing on this... ;D
When I saw the Enterprise first I liked it, but then I thought "Let me play with that thing, and in less than 24 hours the joystick is done!". And that's a weak point, the idea is good, but it's not an Arcade Joystick, it will break (rather sooner than later) and how can you replace it?
The point is, while we see a gaming joystick, it was more some sort of pointing device than a game controler...
But give it ot children and it will be a broken game controler.
@fatbob: ooh, there's two of us? :)
@TFM: true, it's not really hard to break it, but if the company had lived to properly market it this wouldn't have been a real problem: the stick can actually be unscrewed and replaced very easily.
keep seeing boxed Enterprises on ebay from the middle east , going for £300-500 !
Middle East? Seriously? Wow...
A, here's one: [ebay]290576686558[/ebay] . UK only though. What a beaut...
"A Vintage Computer That Will Only Appreciate In Value"
I'm not sure that that is true, once we lose interest or die, no-one else will pay the insane prices we paid for these machines.
Sorry, I could not deselect "bold".
I doubt it will ever be worth more than (or even as much as) the 549 quid he's looking for. I always wanted one of these (the 128K version of course), but I certainly wouldn't pay that for one.
Bryce.
Got mine (boxed!) for GBP[nb]how do you produce the pound symbof if you got no numeric keypad to ALT it in?[/nb]200. 300 pounds would be the top I guess.
However, I don't think retro stuff will end with, erm, us. Collectors come in all the time...
PS I edited your post to remove the formatting. You could "edit" it and remove the bbcodes :)
I agree...
The Enterprise is a nice piece of kit! I was lucky to acquire one cheap in boxed and pristine condition while being on holiday in Hungary 8 years ago.. (The language barrier seemed almost impossible to gab) apparently the enterprise was really popular there in the 80's/90's.
Back in the day the Enterprise was on display at the local computerstore and was a close competitor to the CPC. I obviously went for the CPC464, which I don't regret for a moment...
However while playing around with the Enterprise I was stunned. The 464 is an absolute brick compared to the Enterprise, amazing how much the design differs for two contemporary machines!
Also I think there is little doubt that the Enterprise is superior to the CPC technically! Sadly it was met with such commercial disaster!
There is a Hungarian community for the Enterprise at:
http://enterpriseforever.com/ (http://enterpriseforever.com/)
/Ygdrazil
PS. Funny to see all the CPC conversions on the Enterprise!
Quote from: Bryce on 14:05, 12 December 11
I doubt it will ever be worth more than (or even as much as) the 549 quid he's looking for. I always wanted one of these (the 128K version of course), but I certainly wouldn't pay that for one.
Bryce.
Actually, I think my post looked better in bold ;D
Quote from: Ygdrazil on 15:16, 12 December 11
The 464 is an absolute brick compared to the Enterprise, amazing how much the design differs for two contemporary machines!
Also I think there is little doubt that the Enterprise is superior to the CPC technically! Sadly it was met with such commercial disaster!
Let's hope someone somewhere is busy recreating an Enterprise in an FPGA which could be incorporated into a CPC, or made CPC compatible.
@Gryzor: Chr$(163) :D
Bryce.
Sssssh, don't spread it too much, it's a secret! :-D
It was easy to find, some time ago, disk controllers and RAM upgrades for the Enteprise on vatera.hu:
http://www.vatera.hu/listings/index.php?q=enterprise&c=0 (http://www.vatera.hu/listings/index.php?q=enterprise&c=0)
Doesn't seem there are too much items now, thought.
I managed to find there this beautiful disk controller, and the joystick adapters:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6100/6268802284_129ddc597b.jpg)
After that, I also found another disk controller that included 512k memory expansion:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6030/5943390305_dc4dbf0baa.jpg)
I also bought to some Hungarian seller the original disk controller, the one in this picture (over the light blue one):
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3026/2337500422_7c6ba85a27.jpg)
Besides, one or two years ago it was easy to buy Enteprise computers, and also Videoton TVCs on Vatera. TVC was a Hungarian computer also designed by Intelligent Software; it was almost an Enterprise, except for the graphics IC, which was... a Motorola 6845 :-) Some of the peripherals available for Videoton were adapted to Enterprise, and thus you could find Videoton disk drives that work on homemade or official Enterprise disk controllers.
Have a little patience and you could find some EP hardware & software, and quite cheaply. Good luck! :-D
Hé, nem rossz! The company I was working for back in 1999 bought up 3 Videoton factories including staff back then. I spent two years living down in Székesfehérvár. One of the factories had produced TVC equipment. The storeroom was piled to the ceiling with old TVs, which were obviously outdated and heading for the scrap heap. I wasn't there when they were loaded onto the trucks, but afterwards, one of the other guys (who has no interest in retro computers) told me that there were also 100's of boxes of 8-bit computers, but by then they were already in some landfill. Boy was I pissed off!
Not sure what they were, as I said, I didn't actually see them.
Bryce.
AFAIK, all Videoton computers were TVC models (32k, 64k and 64k+) -I've never seen PC clones, or any other kind of computers, made by Videoton. The story of those equipments ending in the landfill is very sad! :-(
Btw, this is the 32k model (picture taken at a meeting held in cpcmaniaco's home :-)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3536/3983612292_870cc44f2a.jpg)
This is the disk drive -since it's shugart compliant, you can connect it either to an Enterprise with disk controller, or to an Acorn/BBC, etc
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5091/5581440021_3b6a8eb552.jpg)
And this is the disk controller:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5150/5581440423_a4191e6172.jpg)
Hmmm, it's not the prettiest 8-bit I've ever seen, but it would have been nice to have one, just because of it's rarity. I still have quite a few friends in Hungary, maybe I'll send a few E-Mails and see if anyone down there still has one.
Bryce.
Quote from: deepfb on 16:19, 13 December 11
Btw, this is the 32k model (picture taken at a meeting held in cpcmaniaco's home :-)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3536/3983612292_870cc44f2a.jpg)
Oh, wow, I love that design!
A long time ago I heart about that landfill action, but I never 100% believed it. I mean - how stupid can humans be?
My heart weeps.
Anyone up for an archeological expedition next year? ;D
Come to USA, here you can even find 25.000 years old computers from Atlantis, buried in the deserts here.
Or just tons of Atari VCS2600's E.T cartridges under piles of nuclear wastes and cheap dead hookers/Hobbos/crack'hoes.
Yes right, and use moshrooms, shells, and pretty much anything than grass ,)
I up this topic.
Could anyone of you tell me where can I find proper renditions of the Enterprise colour palette and list ?
With names and so on ?
The "colour bias" is actually hard to understand if you don't have a proper list of the colours numbered and so on...
otherwise I guess the palette is a simple "8-8-4 values" RGB, so R=3bit+G=3bits+B=2bits...
As can be found with the MSX2...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/MSX2_Screen8_palette_color_test_chart.png) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/MSX2_Screen8_palette_color_test_chart.png)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/MSX2_Screen8_palette.png) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/MSX2_Screen8_palette.png)
So how can I be sure how to "port" graphics from CPC to Enterprise if i can't have a proper colour table for this system nor more specific informations on this system ?
My aim is to add this to the CPCwiki's enterprise page, but also start a page on "how to emulate CPC palette on other system and other graphic port concepts" (not sure about the name at the moment).
Post edition : ok after a long and desperate search I managed to find this page...
Enterprise Technical Documentation: Nick Chip Programmers Guide (http://gafz.enterpriseforever.com/Dokumentacio/Konyvek/EXOS_2.1_technikal_information/hardware/Nick.html)
Still not exactly what I am looking for, will search more and read more then.
In the nick documentation, the definition of the colours is defined.
you can set 8 colours, these are actually composed of r,g,b values.
colour bias I believe is also r,g,b, but it's lowest 3 bits are an index from 0 to 8.
it is not possible to convert a cpc picture perfectly, some sacrifices must be made.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 10:08, 22 November 12
In the nick documentation, the definition of the colours is defined.
you can set 8 colours, these are actually composed of r,g,b values.
colour bias I believe is also r,g,b, but it's lowest 3 bits are an index from 0 to 8.
it is not possible to convert a cpc picture perfectly, some sacrifices must be made.
"Of the eight bits, there are three each for red and green and two bits for blue, thus allowing eight levels of red and green and four levels of blue. The layout of bits is:
b7 b6 b5 b4 b3 b2 b1 b0
+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
| g0 | r0 | b0 | g1 | r1 | b1 | g2 | r2 |
+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+
total RED = ( r2 * 4 + r1 * 2 + r0 ) / 7
total GREEN = ( g2 * 4 + g1 * 2 + g0 ) / 7
total BLUE = ( b1 * 2 + b0 ) / 3"
for each "line" in the line parameter table you can define 8 colours. 1 byte for each colour, each byte is a r,g,b.
Then in 16 colour mode, you use must use this register:
FIXBIAS b0..b4 Colour bias to be used for top 5 bits of palette colours 8-15.
the low 3 bits come from pen index - 8.
so, what this is saying is that the red, green, blue define the total palette.
in each mode, the number of pens available, how the data is read and then shown is different. some are like speccy, some are like cpc.
in 16 colour pixel mode (just like cpc's mode 0), you can freely choose 8 colours, the others are defined with fixbias. So here, converting a cpc screen can not be done perfect.. careful choice of fixbias is needed to get close.
in 4 colour pixel mode (just like cpc's mode 1), you can define the colours almost perfect.
in 2 colour pixel mode (just like cpc's mode 2 I believe), you can define the colours almost perfect too.
perhaps I just confused things... ?
The bias concept if what I can't find proper explanation...
It is said somewhare that this value set a derogatory list of 8 colours from the 256 palette...
3 bits of fixbias = 32 values.
32x8 (inks) = 256 colours.
The problem I wish I could find a picture with the whole 256 palette with each colours numeroted/named, and the bias lists shown too.
This could be helpfull so Amstrad graphic artist could manage their ink set in order to also be "enterprise friendly" (or MSX2 friendly too)
Nice point with the enterprise is the "raster list".
It reminds me a bit the way the Apple//gs could get 16x16 palettes and assign a different palette (inside the 16x16 = 256 /4096) for each scanline, the way character attributes work.
those are somewhat "scanline colour attributes".
Even the PLUS despite sweet raster interrupts, may not have it that easy.
According to the documentation, the Fixbias can also profit from "sprites" from the extension port...
What is it ?
Is this for video incrustation or a way to get some peripheral to add some "maskedHardsprites" support ?
I like the way it also say that the number of colours must be set to 2 when using attributed mode, or else "imprevisible result"...
What would actually happen then ?
Can't we have some 2bpp attributes ?
The management for the video modes can seem a bit peculiar...
I mean you can set the number of colours or have another set of video modes.
I guess higher bpp means resolution limitations de facto, and to mix them is more a way to put less colours for similar video modes than to have 256 colours in high resolution (like 320x256...) ?
(unless you manage to mod the computer to overclock Nick perhaps... could be nice too)
So yeah.
There I made some stuff in order to compare CPC, EGA and the 8bit 3-3-2 RGB...
The 3-3-2bit RGB can actually be easily comparaired to a real 4x4x4 Cube like this, exept it is a "8x8x4 cube".
A funny aspect with the 8bit 3-3-2 RGB is that it actually lacks seriously in the "true grey" domain...
But searching well you can find somewhat 2 slightly bluish (cold) grey comparable to those for the EGA...
Also I could find 2 "gold greys".
But As the CPC also has a serious lack in Grey, it is not that important IMO.
To me, for an 8 bit computer, a palette such as the 256 colour palette is somewhat overkill...
Many colours quite look exactly the same (bright cyans or greens...), but of course it also allows a large selection of unusual colours too (the greyish ones per exemple or the crossbreed ones).
As the CPC palette is also quite limited, I don't think this is that hard to emulate properly the CPC, of course a few colours wouldn't be exactly the same, but this is the case on real hardware too...
Diferent CPCs on different monitors would get slight differences anyway.
To be fair, unless you want a picture in 16 shades of grey or specificities like this, the simple EGA palette is quite enough for most "game like" graphics in 16 colours.
Sadly the EGA itself rarely managed to have access to its real palette, being too often actually limited to the CGA/spectrum like palette.
But the 640x200x16 mode from the Amstrad PC1512 (or EGA too) could counter this due to the dithering capabilities of the "640" horizontal resolution.
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
The bias concept if what I can't find proper explanation...
It is said somewhare that this value set a derogatory list of 8 colours from the 256 palette...
3 bits of fixbias = 32 values.
32x8 (inks) = 256 colours.
The problem I wish I could find a picture with the whole 256 palette with each colours numeroted/named, and the bias lists shown too.
I don't think there is one. I agree it's explanation is not clear and I agree a palette to indicate how it works would be very useful.
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
This could be helpfull so Amstrad graphic artist could manage their ink set in order to also be "enterprise friendly" (or MSX2 friendly too)
yes I agree.
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
Nice point with the enterprise is the "raster list".
yes
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
According to the documentation, the Fixbias can also profit from "sprites" from the extension port...
What is it ?
Is this for video incrustation or a way to get some peripheral to add some "maskedHardsprites" support ?
it is for a peripheral, i don't think it was used. I don't know if the image is an overlay or a replacement. it may be genlock/"incrustation".
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
I like the way it also say that the number of colours must be set to 2 when using attributed mode, or else "imprevisible result"...
What would actually happen then ?
Can't we have some 2bpp attributes ?
there are some "invalid" combinations. I don't know what the result is.
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
I guess higher bpp means resolution limitations de facto, and to mix them is more a way to put less colours for similar video modes than to have 256 colours in high resolution (like 320x256...) ?
(unless you manage to mod the computer to overclock Nick perhaps... could be nice too)
I think it's all about memory bandwidth.
a higher resolution, but less colours, equals the same number of bytes (or less) to read each cycle.
to get higher resolution and lots of colours does mean to read more data.
To do this the chip needs to run faster, and it needs to work better with the way the z80 reads the data.
They both share the same ram access.
For c64, cpu, then video, then cpu, then video, this is how the memory access is done for display.
On cpc, it makes the z80 wait a little.
With dedicated vram (on msx1) it is possible to do this and z80 remain same speed, but then you must have a special way to access the dedicated vram.
msx1 has a big problem here, later msx have blitter like extensions to make this easier.
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
The 3-3-2bit RGB can actually be easily comparaired to a real 4x4x4 Cube like this, exept it is a "8x8x4 cube".
A funny aspect with the 8bit 3-3-2 RGB is that it actually lacks seriously in the "true grey" domain...
interesting.
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
But As the CPC also has a serious lack in Grey, it is not that important IMO.
I often miss another shade of grey, I wish the cpc had it.
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
To me, for an 8 bit computer, a palette such as the 256 colour palette is somewhat overkill...
Many colours quite look exactly the same (bright cyans or greens...), but of course it also allows a large selection of unusual colours too (the greyish ones per exemple or the crossbreed ones).
As the CPC palette is also quite limited, I don't think this is that hard to emulate properly the CPC, of course a few colours wouldn't be exactly the same, but this is the case on real hardware too...
Diferent CPCs on different monitors would get slight differences anyway.
yes all true
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
To be fair, unless you want a picture in 16 shades of grey or specificities like this, the simple EGA palette is quite enough for most "game like" graphics in 16 colours.
Sadly the EGA itself rarely managed to have access to its real palette, being too often actually limited to the CGA/spectrum like palette.
ega is an evolution of cga, so it inherited some problems from it's ancestor?
Quote from: MacDeath on 00:07, 23 November 12
But the 640x200x16 mode from the Amstrad PC1512 (or EGA too) could counter this due to the dithering capabilities of the "640" horizontal resolution.
yes dither and colour combinations often make a lot more.
splattr game on spectrum makes new "colours" with clever colour choices and a uniform dither.
Quoteega is an evolution of cga, so it inherited some problems from it's ancestor?
may be out of topic but yes, the EGA was plagued with the legacy from CGA.
Only in 640x350 mode you could freely choose from the true EGA palette.
in vertical 200pixels modes you were limited to the "full CGA" palette only (unless some tweakings perhaps), but could get them all in 320x200, 160x200 or even 640x200...
There were also special modes like 320x200x4 (like CGA) where you could choose freely the 4 inks from the 16 colour palette, while CGA had to choose from fixed palette with only the black (first ink) to be set into another "custom" colour... which is quite retarded.
Concerning purely graphic modes, the CPC is actually more powerfull than a CGA...
Only CGA advantage is that it have attribute text mode in 16 colours... and it also has 2 greys...
IBM who designed those Video cards specification was known as "fucking mainframe IBM" and had the subtility of a mamooth at the time.
Games with EGA Graphics (http://theodor.lauppert.ws/games/ega.htm)
but this site seem dead...
Back to topic.
I can do the palette picture for the Enterprise provided I can undertand how those colours are numeroted/numbered.
It would also be nice if I could understand the bias "clusters" a bit more...
Another funny stuff is that you can also simply "name" the teletext basic colours = pure blue, pure magenta and so on...
let's see...
3-3-2 bits = 8-8-4 values.
Blue can have only 0%-33%-66%-100% values I guess.
Concerning Red and green the value goes from 0 to 7... 0 being 0% and 7 being 100% I guess.
So each value add +1/7 = +14,285...%
0= 0%
1=14,285...%
2=28,571...%
3=42,857...%
4=57,142...%
5=71,428...%
6=85,714...%
7=100%
It's like mixing Atari ST palette and EGA palette... ;D
As a result you can't be equal to the blue values, so actually no "equilibrated greys" possible.
But still you can have a few "almost greys" and a lot of unsaturated hues.
To emulate C64 graphics is indeed even more problematic on Enterprise than on CPC due to having no real greys while C64 has 3 true greys ... and 11 "almost greys" colours... ;)
Here is the sort of picture I would like to do... but for the Enterprise.
[attachimg=2]
I managed to find this, it seems it is a table to convert amstrad CPC colours into Enterprise (and so on) colours...
Sadly it miss a lot like the bias constraint so i want to do a better one too.
[attachimg=1]
I haven't figured out what GEC0 means.
Could someone tell me also what walue should I use as R-G-B on my modern PC to almost faithfully emulate or generate the Enterprise colours ?
I fail hard at hexadecimal...