Since last week I am working on the network support for SymbOS. The first version is based on the Wiznet W5100 ethernet controller, which is used in the DenYoNet card for the MSX (as well as in the Spectranet hardware). There is a W5100 project for the CPC, too, so it's probably one of the choices you will have. Here is a first screenshot...
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-01httpreq.jpg)
...showing the test utility, which is loading the WWW.MSX.FI (http://www.msx.fi) homepage.
The driver is designed in a way, that it's very easy to exchange the used hardware by dividing the code into three layers. The low level code is for accessing the W5100 hardware directly, which is different between the CPC and the MSX. The mid level is for working with the hardware, which is the same for all systems using the W5100. Other hardware like the ESP8266 Wlan module, which can be connected to the MiniBooster/CPC Booster/RS232 on the Enterprise 128 or own TCP/IP stack implementations are realisable with just another midlevel code. The high level is for managing the connections and communication with the processes, which want to do networking.
All TCP routines seem to work now, now it's time for UDP to make DNS and DHCP possible.
The network driver is running as a "Daemon", which is an own background process in the multitasking environment. Applications can send messages to it, like asking for opening a new connection, sending data to an already opened connection etc. They will also receive messages from the network daemon, if there is new incoming data or if the status of a connection changed etc. This makes it possible to run multiple applications at the same time, which all can have open connections.
The new network driver takes care about compatibility to Dr.Zeds NetD driver from 2007, which was developed for the SYMBiface 3 expansion card.
(http://www.symbos.de/files/dsc01866.jpg)
That makes it easy to adapt applications like SymTEL and Dr.Zeds' GUI-based SymFTP ftp client.
Oh. Wow.
.
:o :o :o
Very good job! Congratulations!
Amazing !! Congratulations !! This is so cool to see! All the work you did on SymbOS .. it's amazing !! and now... the first stage of network support .. !! how crazy, how cool !!
Excellent, finally we can have pR0n internet on SymbOS! I assume you are now working on a Youtube frontend? :D
Bryce.
I think "holy crap" quite summarizes my thoughts right now.. And I can't wait for SSH and SymPutty to maintain butch, koons and all those bansrv-xx guys ;-)
Too good to be true :-) Made my day
Hi Prodatron,
Sorry I missed your PM before, can you send me some info on the network interface?
Cheers,
Richard
Hi Richard, sure I will! :) The bitwise-eMail is still valid?
could you support Thomson's nanoRéseaux as Well ?
;D
ok i'm out....
QuoteExcellent, finally we can have pR0n internet on SymbOS!
Were you about to tell pr0net ? ::)
http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=7798 (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=7798)
http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=7710 (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=7710)
Warning : safe for work, but it really depends on your job...
Quote from: MacDeath on 19:47, 26 March 15
could you support Thomson's nanoRéseaux as Well ?
That remembers me on your discussion on CPCRULEZ
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcpcrulez.fr%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D2%26t%3D5450&edit-text= (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcpcrulez.fr%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D2%26t%3D5450&edit-text=)
I am currently concentrating on the TCP/IP stuff. I wonder if the API of the network daemon could be abstracted in a way that it supports other network technologies as well. It shouldn't matter if the destination is a domain name, an IPv4, IPv6 address or whatever, it's only a string and the driver will handle it. But it's also important that you have a TCP and an UDP like communication with the remote side, which is either a connection-based or a connectionless communication, otherwise you can't use the API in the way it is designed for.
Will it support Flash and sites like YouTube?
Is the Jabber-Client of DRZed then also implemented?
I'd like to run Jabber on my CPC :-) Dunno why - but it will be great.
And: as soon as you have kind of httpd i put one of the CPC6128 into our datacenter with a webcam pointing to the monitor where you can then see the logfile running through - so you must(!) implement kind of an 'tail -f /var/log/httpd.log' possibiliy :o
Quote from: EgoTrip on 23:08, 26 March 15
Will it support Flash and sites like YouTube?
If you make the DOX proxy ;)
Quote from: BSC on 10:33, 24 March 15
I think "holy crap" quite summarizes my thoughts right now.. And I can't wait for SSH and SymPutty to maintain butch, koons and all those bansrv-xx guys ;-)
Unfortunately I think SSH is way beyond the capabilities of any symbos machine without some external micro controller to do the key exchange and encryption (which sort of defeats the point?). A putty like program that can do telnet (and serial?) would be awesome though.
.
Quote from: Edoz(MSX) on 08:44, 27 March 15
If you make the DOX proxy ;)
What does posting up people's personal details have to do it?
In all seriousness though, I know flash is impossible. But would a specifically designed system for SymbOS be possible, so you can have a YT style website you can stream video and music tracks from?
Quote from: EgoTrip on 14:03, 27 March 15
What does posting up people's personal details have to do it?
In all seriousness though, I know flash is impossible. But would a specifically designed system for SymbOS be possible, so you can have a YT style website you can stream video and music tracks from?
The answer is yes. The idea is you will be able to browse, download,stream, chat & play via a dedicated symbos server. I'm looking forward to the coding some network games
I completely forgot about the Jabber client, which Dr.Zed started in 2007 :D I have to ask him, if he still has the source codes. Jabber or IRC, one or both is a must for networking.
Yes, all kind of encryption is probably impossible on the Z80. So we have to stay with SymTel (Telnet) :)
I didn't try any major performance tests yet with the W5100. In theory you have the maximum speed of 162KB/s on the CPC when transfering data to/from the W5100 buffer. The problem is, that each buffer is only 2KB, when using all 4 sockets, and here you may have fragmentation problems with the IP packets, which could cause delays and re-sends and slow down the network speed.
I will finish DNS lookup today and then do some tests.
As long as you send 'text only' most encryption shouldn't be a problem. However, anything else has just too much 'volume' and would make it too slow. A problem I see is actually to get the correct encryption / decryption protocols, but maybe you already solved that problem. :)
EDIT: On CPC you can also omit the usual 'backdoors', which would make SymbOS the most secure OS. ;)
Thanks Prodatron !! Amazing !! My MSX did a network task for the first time with SymbOS!
(http://i57.tinypic.com/wtt3kn.png)
Crazy !!
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
QuoteOn CPC you can also omit the usual 'backdoors'
what ? my CPC doesn't have any backdoor ? I think it is less sexy now I know that...
;D
Quote from: MacDeath on 23:36, 27 March 15
what ? my CPC doesn't have any backdoor ? I think it is less sexy now I know that...
;D
The secret services of the following countries will love you for ever:
- usa
- gb
- france
- small country in middle east
- russia
- china
- india! (yes, India too, they bitched at Apple until....)
SymTel is working again! :D
(click for larger images)
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-02telnet-s.gif) (http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-02telnet.jpg) (http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-03telnet-s.gif) (http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-03telnet.jpg) (http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-04telnet-s.gif) (http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-04telnet.jpg)
I made the first test with Karlochs' HispaMSX BBS (http://telnet://bbs.hispamsx.org), which worked out quite well so far. Have to fix a bug and reimplement the ANSI/VT100 control code handling, the old one was quite botched.
Here is a short video just to prove, that it really works
SymTel - TELNET for SymbOS - first try (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlLvb5KrHDM#ws)
Very impressive! Cool to have telnet!!! :P
Btw, currently I have to post MSX screen shots.
But the cool thing about this is, that now all coding isn't platform specific. The platform specific W5100 code is only about 50 lines of Z80 assembler for the CPC (already done! quite simple IN/OUT stuff) and about 100 lines of Z80 assembler for the MSX (due to it's more extensive memory slot selection methodes for the memory mapped hardware implementation). Most of the W5100 code isn't platform specific, and applications itself of course not at all. It seems, that for the Enterprise 64/128 they will choose the W5300 ethernet controller, which is more powerful - somehow the maximum for the Z80. 128K transfer buffer, 8 sockets instead of 4. The principle is still the same, so it's easy to adapt it.
So now you do an network version of Whacky Wit? :D SPRING! matters :D
Quote from: Prodatron on 21:40, 29 March 15Most of the W5100 code isn't platform specific, and applications itself of course not at all. It seems, that for the Enterprise 64/128 they will choose the W5300 ethernet controller, which is more powerful - somehow the maximum for the Z80. 128K transfer buffer, 8 sockets instead of 4. The principle is still the same, so it's easy to adapt it.
I just had a glance and according to this link http://www.wiznet.co.kr/Sub_Modules/en/product/Product_Line.asp?cate1=5&cate2=7 (http://www.wiznet.co.kr/Sub_Modules/en/product/Product_Line.asp?cate1=5&cate2=7) the W5300 really is the most advanced of the WIZnet series of TCP/IP chips.
Are other network chips being discussed?
The other network hardware which is currently investigated for the CPC is the ESP8266 WLAN Module. It has to be connected via RS232, so it could be used with the CPC Booster/MiniBooster. It is quite an intelligent piece of hardware, which can handle even more stuff compared to the Wiznet controllers. Though I have no idea if the "indirect" connection via RS232 could have disadvantages compared to the W5x00. We can probably talk about it on the Revision party this weekend together with Octoate :)
Quote from: Prodatron on 13:28, 01 April 15We can probably talk about it on the Revision party this weekend together with Octoate :)
Yep, we'll discuss that at the Revision! :)
Yesterday evening I had my first internet chat using a Z80 computer. And my chat partner was using SymbOS on his machine, too :)
This was my view in Germany:
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-06chat.jpg%5D)
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-07chat.jpg%5D)
And this was Edoz view in the Netherlands:
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-08chat.jpg%5D)
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-09chat.jpg%5D)
...both connected to Karlochs' BBS in Spain :D
That was a strange feeling... I want to have this on the CPC as soon as possible, too!
ANSI/VT100 code conversion in SymTel is finished now. Next step is dynamic socket management inside the Network Daemon to make multiple network sessions with multiple applications possible at the same time.
This is like a dream come true regarding CPC.
I think that the topic about "internet on the CPC" or "IRC on the CPC" is as old as the internet itself! :laugh:
how is going the CPC-ethernet card? will be a SF2 addon or MX4 compatible card or what! ? :D
Quote from: Joseman on 14:33, 01 April 15
This is like a dream come true regarding CPC.
I think that the topic about "internet on the CPC" or "IRC on the CPC" is as old as the internet itself! :laugh:
how is going the CPC-ethernet card? will be a SF2 addon or MX4 compatible card or what! ? :D
well... Sf2 add-on, mx4 card or mini booster add-on all suit me lol.
What's about Dr. Zed internet card? Wasn't that up and running in 2007 already? Or did this get dropped now for making space on newer generation hardware?
Quote from: TFM on 15:42, 01 April 15
What's about Dr. Zed internet card? Wasn't that up and running in 2007 already? Or did this get dropped now for making space on newer generation hardware?
it never went beyond prototype stage. Before Dr. Zed retired from hardware manufacture. I suspect he took the schematic etc with him.
Dr.Zed isn't active on the CPC anymore.
In this case ... why not using new chips which make life even more easy. :)
Quote from: TFM on 17:47, 01 April 15
In this case ... why not using new chips which make life even more easy. :)
Sadly Prodatron isnt a hardware designer, so has had to wait for somebody to attempt it. Luckily it seems this hardware is gonna appear soon on both the Enterprise and CPC, as well as the existing MSX hardware. Personally as a purely emulator user I want WinApe support so I can get the Symbos Network API working inside Unify, and start coding network based apps and games. Cant wait to play you all online :)
People,
I am still developing an ethernet card (of which I have one prototype using the CS8900a chip). But development of the CPC web browser is taking up much more time and nearing completion of gettting most if not all of the HTML browser capabilities (see attached picture it).
The next card i intend to build will be based on the SPI interface I posted a schematic a while ago.
rpalmer
You guys should join forces, so one day there will be a _REALLY_ working something. And to focus on one solution also makes it more easy for the software side. :)
Quote from: MaV on 13:36, 01 April 15
Yep, we'll discuss that at the Revision! :)
We are all on the Revision now and Octoate makes a LOT of progress with the ESP8266!! :D
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
Many greetings from the Revision party 2015!!
Quote from: Prodatron on 16:52, 04 April 15
Many greetings from the Revision party 2015!!
All of you enjoy your time there and have a lot of fun! :) :) :)
Epic work, octoate did. Now we can IRC even in BASIC .-)
Quote from: TFM on 16:55, 04 April 15
All of you enjoy your time there and have a lot of fun! :) :) :)
...yeah, with a lot of "Karlberg Pils" Expansion connected :D
Time for some serious crypto-stuff for ssh, mail, text browsing and ftp!
Now I need to buy an ESP card or two. :D
IRC in BASIC with the CPC :o Can't wait to read about it at The Amstrad CPC news portal (http://www.octoate.de) soon. :)
SymbOS 3.0 Preview with TCP/IP and telnet !! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjPmmG1BoXI)
Every time that i see videos like this (worpad, mp3, network) on a Z80 machine it seems for me incredible, and i wonder what would we thinked in 1992 with all of this working in our CPC'S...
I really think that we were fooled by the industry making us think that our z80 machines weren't good enough and that we need a new machine. Still i had my cpc until end of 1995! but obviously they were forcing us to leave our beloved machines for powerful PC without souls and any magic...
On the other hand WinAPE and such really kicked started rapid prototyping so one can speculate if without it and invaluable internet/wiki knowledge it would be feasible as of 1995.
Im sorry but my work on wiznet chip must wait some time... I'm now discovering the life of how to be a father ;D :laugh:
Also, I will have to deal with some kind of sync/timing bug that makes indirect I/O of wiznet chip to fail because of some double increment at the address counter when reading high values (like 0xff).
Yeah.... a
full-fledged traditionnal CPC-firmware-oriented IRC client : if you want to flood the channel with sentimental messages like "my 464/6128/PLUS rulezzz" or "Ataga ZMSXC64 spectrum 400 suxxxx", instead of copy/paste paradigm, you'll massively use the
SHIFT-ARROWS-COPY keys paradigm at the prompt :laugh:
Quote from: TFM on 20:56, 04 April 15
IRC in BASIC with the CPC :o Can't wait to read about it at The Amstrad CPC news portal (http://www.octoate.de) soon. :)
xx
Methinks we ought to launch our own IRC server soon :D
That would be awesome :D
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:45, 19 April 15
Methinks we ought to launch our own IRC server soon :D
hell yes, first priority after we all have mx4 format ethernet network cards.
I have been playing with the irc client from the spectranet examples source code (the ethernet card for zx spectrum, with the wiznet w5100 chip, the same I am using) and is extremely easy. C compiled irc client for CPC will be powerfull!!
So what about MMORPG on CPC ? is the technology ready ?
Quote from: MacDeath on 20:18, 19 April 15
So what about MMORPG on CPC ? is the technology ready ?
:D
Wonderful idea. Something like BrowserQuest (http://browserquest.mozilla.org/)?
Quote from: Gryzor on 10:45, 19 April 15
Methinks we ought to launch our own IRC server soon :D
Please note, that both the W5100 and the ESP8266 only provide 4 sockets. So some server stuff will be nice for "yeah, it's working!" purpose, but I guess most of the usefull apps will be client specific.
IRC is a good example how easy all these old "classic" 7bit ASCII message based internet protocols are. Most of them are from the 70ies and the 80ies.
The network daemon is starting to take shape.
[attachimg=1]
TBH writing the W5100 low level network routines was less work than implementing all the management stuff around it.
Hope to get the network apps connected to the daemon soon.
Incredible, when I grow up, I want to be like you @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) :laugh:
Quote from: Joseman on 14:30, 02 May 15
Incredible, when I grow up, I want to be like you @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) :laugh:
Yes, he is our Bill Gates for the Amstrad. :)
or linus tolvards?
Quote from: Joseman on 14:30, 02 May 15
Incredible, when I grow up, I want to be like you @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) :laugh:
We're retro enthusiasts, we don't grow up :D
Bryce.
Dear Prodatron : why didn't you do that in 1987... now it is too late to become a billionaire...
Anyway, keep up the good work and also prepare a nice 512k Cartridge PLUS version of symbOS as well (with hardsprite and rasters)
Quotehe is our Bill Gates for the Amstrad
as with my coffee : only one Sugar is enough.
TBH currently I admire Elon Musk much more than Bill Gates and Linus Torvalds :D
The SymbOS GUI is WinXX style but the SymbOS kernel is Minix oriented (which is based on a pure micro kernel like SymbOS; Linux has a monolithic kernel, and Windows NTxx has a hybrid kernel), so in this case Andrew Tanenbaum is rather my ideal :) [oh yes, and he is probably not a billionaire]
A catridge version sounds nice, and as soon as the Plus features are reactivated it could be a good option!
Quote from: Joseman on 19:25, 03 May 15
or linus tolvards?
Who is that? Ok... I will research that later. ;)
Quote from: MacDeath on 20:38, 03 May 15
Dear Prodatron : why didn't you do that in 1987... now it is too late to become a billionaire...
Gary Kildall would of sued. ;)
Quote from: TFM on 02:14, 04 May 15
Who is that? Ok... I will research that later. ;)
linus torvalds stepbrother!
Quote from: Prodatron on 00:59, 04 May 15
A catridge version sounds nice, and as soon as the Plus features are reactivated it could be a good option!
Yes, you talk about this since a long time. Would be really great to add the 6128 Plus to computers capable of running symbos. I mean msx and Enterprise can do it, why not the Plus? What's the problem?
Lol, SymbOS runs fine on the CPC+.
Some SYMBiFACE II cards are crashing with activated Plus mode, when using SF2 features. I figured that out in April 2006 at Tolkins 6128+ on the VCFe and deactivated the Plus-stuff. And in a flexible GUI you don't have many improvements with the Plus features, only a larger palette and the possibility to have the mouse pointer as a hardware sprites - and that's it. Not so many good reasons to invest time in this until the MotherX4 arrived ;)
If anyone of the CPC+ owners is interested I can compile a version with activated Plus mode again for testing.
Can you do a cartridge version of it, that we could install on the C4CPC? I'd be interested in having this.
Bryce.
Quote from: Prodatron on 20:25, 04 May 15
Lol, SymbOS runs fine on the CPC+.
Some SYMBiFACE II cards are crashing with activated Plus mode, when using SF2 features. I figured that out in April 2006 at Tolkins 6128+ on the VCFe and deactivated the Plus-stuff. And in a flexible GUI you don't have many improvements with the Plus features, only a larger palette and the possibility to have the mouse pointer as a hardware sprites - and that's it. Not so many good reasons to invest time in this until the MotherX4 arrived ;)
If anyone of the CPC+ owners is interested I can compile a version with activated Plus mode again for testing.
Probably its a problem with some floating bits on some CPCs floating bus. 2006!! OMG!!! Ok, so you want to know advantages of the Plus? I can name some..
You already mentioned:
- Bigger color palette
- Mouse pointer as hardware sprite
Now there are some more:
- Analogue input (joystick) for non SF2 owners ;-)
- Real 8 bit printing of Graphic (Can SymbOS print now actually?)
- Task-Bar can have it's own colors (screen split)
- Icons can be more colorful (15 hard sprites are left)
- use DMA for sound output
- of course there is more and more possibilities...
:)
Quote from: Bryce on 20:44, 04 May 15
Can you do a cartridge version of it, that we could install on the C4CPC? I'd be interested in having this.
Bryce.
Yes, that's a great idea! Is this possible?
Quote from: Bryce on 20:44, 04 May 15
Can you do a cartridge version of it, that we could install on the C4CPC? I'd be interested in having this.
Yes, I am planning to make a CPR file, which boots SymbOS from catridge. It's probably included in the 3.0 end of this year.
Quote from: TFM on 20:50, 04 May 15Now there are some more
No, hardware sprites can't be used for icons in a modern GUI, because of multiple overlapping and a more or less unlimited amount of controls in multiple windows (and why especially icons?). You can only use 2D graphic hardware accelerators (blitter) to support this (like on the MSX).
Analog joystick input sounds good, if people are still using it.
The other stuff isn't really interesting or too special for the core part of the operating system. There can be a sound daemon (for AY [CPC+MSX], DMA [CPC+], PlayCity [CPC], Dave [Enterprise], MSX Audio, MSX Music, PCM [MSX], SCC [MSX], MSXMP3, Moonsound [MSX] blabla etc. etc. - too much different sound hardware on the supported SymbOS platforms to make "one" support in the operating system - you get it? ;) ) and a printer daemon in the future like the network daemon.
Quote from: Prodatron on 21:40, 04 May 15
Yes, I am planning to make a CPR file, which boots SymbOS from catridge. It's probably included in the 3.0 end of this year.
Booting from Cart will not leave much RAM for an not expanded (RAM) 6128 Plus (not to mention the 464 Plus at all). Shouldn't be that hard to keep some parts in ROM (and run them there), while other parts (containing self modifying code f.e.) run in RAM (you get it?). ;)
The memory model of SymbOS is very CPC specific, it has been designed in a way, that it fully uses the ram-based bankswitching capabilities of the Amstrad. But the Amstrad CPCs type of memory mapping is more primitive than these of the MSX/PCW/EP, which have the typical 100% flexible 4x16K out or 256x16K block switching you know from later Z80 machines (Amstrad NCxx0 as well). That's one of several reasons why it is possible to port SymbOS to other platforms. If SymbOS would have been developed on the MSX or PCW with their advanced memory banking it would be impossible to port it to the CPC. But in its "limited" CPC-way it's still providing full 64K ram areas when executing applications (so they can have a full 64K area to play with directly + anything else indirectly) while the kernel and the core manager modules can access all parts of the ram in a very fast way.
A rom based version would be possible but break up all this stuff. A lot of (currently platform-independant) kernel code would have to be modified, and you will have to maintain two different versions. I was never interested in a rom-based version, as one of the proposition of SymbOS is to run on an unexpanded computer from all supported platforms with 128K and disc drive, but a rom based version would ALWAYS require an expansion/additional hardware which is uncool, when you want to show, that such a system works at least (in a limited way regarding the number of apps running at the same time) on the original hardware. Get the original computer without anything, insert a disc and just go! Another issue of a rom-based version is the fact, that the task scheduler (multitasking) would have to do some more work and handling data when doing task content switching if beside the switched ram there are roms mapped-in, too, and IMHO content switching can't be as fast as possible.
Out of curiosity, would a MSX/PCW/EP specific approach offer benefits for these platforms? Would the approach be the same for all of them? I don't have that great knowledge on Z80 advanced low level programming, but find the topic really interesting :-) Still I'm really happy the CPC is the common denominator under given circumstances.
Quote from: Singaja on 12:09, 05 May 15
Out of curiosity, would a MSX/PCW/EP specific approach offer benefits for these platforms? Would the approach be the same for all of them? I don't have that great knowledge on Z80 advanced low level programming, but find the topic really interesting :-) Still I'm really happy the CPC is the common denominator under given circumstances.
Yes, on MSX/PCW/EP or NCxxx, the applications would be able to do bankswitching inside "their" 64K address content. So they could access more memory in a fast way. This is not possible on the CPC, as extended parts of the ram (16K) can only be mapped together with the ram from the first 64K.
So in SymbOS all operating system parts (which have to access the whole available memory in a fast way) are placed in the first 64K, as here you can switch single portions of all the extended ram. Applications are placed in secondary 64K banks, which then will be switched at once in the visible address area of the Z80.
It's not possible to use the advanced memory features on the MSX etc. without writing a completely new kernel and designing a completely different memory model, which then wouldn't work for the CPC at all. So yes, it was really good luck that the CPC was the platform where it started :)
And even the CPC is already advanced regarding memory banking compared to other 8bit systems. Most are more limited (ZX Spectrum, Memotech MTX, Atari 8bit, even the C128; ...and the C64 doesn't have standard ram banking at all).
FlashJazzCat is working on a very interesting project similiar to SymbOS for the Atari8bit computers:
GUI | Atari8 (http://atari8.co.uk/gui/)
On this system, only 16K of an application can be switched into the visible 64K area at once, so the challenge for developing apps is even higher here, but FlashJazzCat already proved, that it's still possible (you will recognize some similarities :) ):
Atari 8-bit GOS: Task manager memory graph and multiple application instances working (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xugc1tqYf0c#)
So I think we can already be very happy with the "limited" banking capabilities of the CPC :)
Well @Prodatron (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=13) you got one good point when you say that you would require to split into a RAM and a ROM version. That is a lot of work, especially since you stated that you intend to release a newer version this year.
About the memory paging, I don't think it's a problem to page ROM instead of RAM, but nobody can ask you for a major rewrite, while you can use your time in a better way. It was just a thought I had. :)
It's great that SymbOS runs on an unexpanded CPC to show off it's capabilities. :)
What about Spectrum +3? Didn't people in Amstrad do the memory bank switching & handling in a similar manner to CPC?
At least there seem to be a big Spectrum community. Can the Speccy do Symbos?
Quote from: Singaja on 18:45, 05 May 15What about Spectrum +3? Didn't people in Amstrad do the memory bank switching & handling in a similar manner to CPC?
Unfortunately not.
128K ZX Spectrum Technical Information (http://www.worldofspectrum.org/faq/reference/128kreference.htm)
Scroll down to "ZX Spectrum +2A / +3". It's still quite limited compared to the CPC (and fixed to 128K).
Quote from: TFM on 16:42, 05 May 15while you can use your time in a better way.
Yes, I use it for Z80 coding instead of starting nasty and pointless threads (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/other-retro/symbos-did-it-again!).
Quote from: Prodatron on 19:39, 05 May 15
Yes, I use it for Z80 coding instead of starting nasty and pointless threads (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/other-retro/symbos-did-it-again!).
Actually no, you just keep on bitching at me. And sadly on lower level.
In this thread you're pointing at somebody is interested in SF2 and software running on it. But if there is the smallest critics on your symbos, you take it personal. Instead you should be a bit more mature and see that this review actually provides valuable information to you. Any critics is good critics. And truly you gave me tons of shit since 2007 - I took it positive and thanks to you FutureOS got better. Thank you (no pun intended). So maybe you can stop your bitching at me and don't make me personally responsible if there is one person out there who didn't sign up in your religion. Are we ok now? I hope so.
:) :) :)
please guys, the hall of shame is already full of this...
Agreed. So... Hush.
Quote from: TFM on 20:06, 05 May 15Actually no, you just keep on bitching at me.
You call the following "bitching at you"?...:
English Cartridge with FutureOS for 6128 Plus using Plus features (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/programming/english-cartridge-with-futureos-for-6128-plus-using-plus-features/msg98346/#msg98346)
BFS16 & FAT in the same HD? (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/applications/bfs16-fat-in-the-same-hd/msg98551/#msg98551)
The first one was only a
simple question! Maybe there is already an IDE rom available. I couldn't find one, and it's your definition of the so called spartan bit to hide all the non working buttons. Not a big thing at all, but it seems that it made you very angry, and I don't know why.
The second one is a reaction on your behaviour in the CPCWiki to mark ONE software as "abandonware" - very probably because you see it as a competitor, while 99% of all other CPC software is abandonware, too, so very senseless (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/applications/bfs16-fat-in-the-same-hd/msg98558/#msg98558). This is bitching. And this is too obviouse.
So what's about the bitching at you?
You are so cool in getting 10.5 years old stories out of the bin just to put shit at somebody.
I didn't answer lots of your post, because I'm sick an tired of OS wars.
I take a break now of everything SymbOS and you.
Quote from: TFM on 21:20, 05 May 15I take a break now of everything SymbOS and you.
That would be fantastic, I appreciate this a lot.
Quote from: Prodatron on 21:33, 05 May 15
That would be fantastic, I appreciate this a lot.
Great! Just do the same thing for me! ;)
About two month ago all the base network routines (TCP, UDP, DNS) were working, but then the next part was the so called network daemon, which runs as a service and provides networking for multiple applications at the same time inside the multitasking environment. Defining the message based API and implementing the base structure for it unfortunately took more time than expected (I was very lazy in between :) ), but now it's nearly finished. NSLOOKUP already works but the best thing is: Trebmint already started the support in Unify!
So here you see the first network app coded 100% in Unify (formerly SymStudio/SymBasic) running successful:
[attachimg=1]
Like the whole Unify programming structure the code for handling network connections is object oriented, so you will have a lot of fun with the modern and comfortable way of programming :)
Absolutely Amazing, man. I'm looking forward to running symbos on my real CPC and start working on networked applications :D.
This is indeed impressive and as far as I know the first CPC IP4 network stack made, is that right?
Apollo,
I had created a TCP/IP V4 stack in ROM from similar code for CPCIP.
It has support for socket programming (8 sockets) which can allow for DNS lookup. It also has supporft for DHCP and ARP for those who know what they are.
The ROM also includes scope for various devices to be used (of which i used a CS8900 chip). It is possibel to use the WizNet 5100 series chip.
There is alot the TCP/IP ROM can do, but it has been on the back buner for some time while the CPC Web Browser continue to evolve. The curret developmentr build does have a module to allow for custom network connection and this is under development.
rpalmer
Quote from: Apollo on 01:14, 28 May 15
This is indeed impressive and as far as I know the first CPC IP4 network stack made, is that right?
I knew from CPCIP (TCP/IP software implemenation), Dr.Zeds SYMBiFACE 3 prototype (hardware implementation - never released) and Octoates ESP8266 module for the minibooster (hardware implementation) so far, which were/are fully working. I am quite interested in Rays hardware solution as well.
The low level layer of the network daemon can be easily exchanged with different hardware drivers or a software implementation. There is currently a driver for the W5100 hardware for the MSX (DenYoNet) and a possible W5100 implementation (port based; not tested yet, not sure if this project will be finished) for the CPC available. As soon as the ESP8266 module is fully specified (it's still possible to optimize the communication with the CPC), we can have a driver here, too.
It seems networking is fairly painless to implement into Unify too. Very painless given that I don't own hardware and no emu's currently support networking (yet I hope - Please Richard Winape needs this!) I'm looking forward to localhost implementation though.
MESS supports networking via TAP/TUN devices (Linux) or PCAP (everything else), but lacks emulation of the networking chipsets mentioned here (as far as I know, that is).
@rpalmer (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=379):
thanks for the information, I didn't know about CPCIP to be honest but it nice to hear about such projects. So kudos to all of you implementing IPv4 network stacks and even more to implement features like DHCP! I never even dreamed about to be once able to have a DHCP server allocating an IP address to my CPC, ever!
@prodatron:
thanks for the addition info, sadly the SF3 never got finished as it would be a nice extension over SF2 as far I remember the specs. Especially nowadays it is much cheaper to produce low volume hardware as it was 5 years ago.
Seems, that the website with CPCIP isn't online anymore?
Attached is the CPCIP package, which was developed 1999-2001 by Mark Rison.
I was implementing a "localecho" network adapter, which just echos incoming TCP and UDP packets. This makes it possible to do important basic tests on the CPC emulator as well, which is good, as debugging in WinApe is much more comfortable than on the real hardware. So I was able to start 4 Telnet sessions at the same time, while the 5th session returned with a "no free socket" error:
[attach=2]
I am now planning to implement a real "localhost" network adapter, as this is probably good when writing network apps - in this case, some server apps are required as well though.
After fixing a bug in the routine for generating random local ports (49152–65535) it was possible to start multiple Telnet sessions on the real hardware:
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-12multi.jpg)
HispaMSX-BBS was even complaining, that it wouldn't be possible to be there two times :D
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-11multi.jpg)
(but with my Z80 it was :D )
Quote from: Prodatron on 12:13, 31 May 15
HispaMSX-BBS was even complaining, that it wouldn't be possible to be there two times :D
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-11multi.jpg)
(but with my Z80 it was :D )
Have you just taken the first steps to create HAL :o
Trebmints Unify IDE for SymbOS is now supporting TCP as well and therefore most of the important network capabilities at all.
Today Trebmint implemented the TCP API of the Network Daemon and so we were able to make a successful test this evening:
[attachimg=1]
Sending data packages to the echotool on my Notebook worked well:
[attachimg=2]
The impressive thing is the little amount of code you have to write to get such a result including
- opening connection
- send data
- receive data
- close the connection
...:
Function Net_Event
If Net.Event.Type And 128 Then
Label1.Text=Net.TCP.String.Receive(Net.Event.Bytes.Received) // ("RECEIVE TCP")
Label1.Refresh
EndIf
EndF
// Event Control Button2 ("OPEN TCP")
Function Button2_Event
myip$=Net.DNS.Resolve("192.168.178.58")
Net.TCP.Client.Open(10000,myip$,10000)
Label3.Text="IP:"+myip$
Label3.Refresh
EndF
// Event Control Button3 ("CLOSE TCP")
Function Button3_Event
Net.TCP.Close
EndF
// Event Control Button4 ("SEND TCP")
Function Button4_Event
Net.TCP.Send(Control.Text(TextLine1)))
EndF
And that's it. Coding network apps on Z80 machines can't be easier :)
Wow! Man! This was impossible even on our imaginations years ago. Thank you for your hard work :)
Quote from: ronaldo on 20:32, 01 June 15
Wow! Man! This was impossible even on our imaginations years ago. Thank you for your hard work :)
This morning I was connected with my Z80 to a Commodore C128, which is running 24/7 as a BBS (http://www.particles.org/particlesbbs) via Telnet:
[attach=2]
TBH that was quite impressive to speak to another 8bit directly :)
Quote from: Prodatron on 21:51, 01 June 15
TBH that was quite impressive to speak to another 8bit directly :)
It actually is. It is something new even for our present days: imagining this running 25 years ago... It'd have been like magic :D
Quote from: ronaldo on 21:59, 01 June 15
It actually is. It is something new even for our present days: imagining this running 25 years ago... It'd have been like magic :D
25 years ago I used a nice 2400 baud modem to chat with mailboxes, but it was not a Commodore ;)
Today EdoZ asked me, why not implementing a nice little command line tool, and so I couldn't resist and programmed NETSTAT, known from BSD, Linux and Windows :P
[attach=2]
You can see it in the lower left shell window. I have been connected with the HispaMSX-BBS, ASCII-Star Wars (towel.blinkenlights.nl) and Telehack.com. The network daemon provides a function to send the status of all available sockets, and so netstat is using this to display it in exactly the same way like you know it from the "big" one. Now you can figure out, if there is a backdoor application installed in SymbOS or not :D .
Hey guys, I've been working on getting Prodatron symbos networking into unify the last week, and its great. We're going to have a decent amount of cool network software ready for the launch of the beta 3/network daemon.
Problem is for the CPC is that as yet we have no hardware or emulation that allows us to use it other than localhost, so unlike the MSX (and soon EP) we wont be able to play online against each other. Any Hardware or Emulator guys out there we need you?
During the last days a lot stuff happend. The Network Daemon is now fully configurable, and the new "Driver" tab shows the status of the LEDs of the currently used MSX ethernet card. EdoZ made a little video for demonstating this:
You can see, how especially TX, RX and Link react on EdoZ char typing in the Telnet console.
At the same time Trebmint completed a huge part of the network support in the Unify IDE. That made it possible to write a simple but fully working internet messenger, called the "Simple Messenger", for SymbOS with Unify, which only consists of 30 lines of code - the initial development took 5 minutes :D
And so today we were able to have this very special moment: I started two instances of the messenger as a server on my 8bit machine in Germany, and EdoZ from The Netherlands and NYYRIKKI from Finland connected as clients from their Z80 computers directly over the internet. So I had two chat sessions running on my Z80. As this worked well, NYYRIKKI and EdoZ opened a direct chat session as well. All three MSX were connected to each other at the same time!
(click to enlarge)(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-16messenger2-s.gif) (http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-16messenger2.jpg)
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-16messenger1-s.gif) (http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-16messenger1.jpg)
TBH we had a lot fun again today! :)
But as I am developing everything on the CPC with WinApe I also created the "localhost" driver this week. It already supports TCP and a fake kind of DNS, which is fine for 90% of the apps.
This was a test on the Amstrad CPC:
(http://www.symbos.de/gfx/preview/network-17localhost.png)
Let's keep this all finished for a beta release end of this month :) And I am looking forward to any CPC network hardware like the W5100 or Octos ESP8266, soon (since April all work on this project is completely platform independant :) ).
This is absolutely unbelivable. Can't wait to see this working on my real Amstrad CPC someday soon :D
Congratulations! Very impressive! :o
This is so great ;D
/Ygdrazil
All we need now is a Ethernet m4x card.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 09:47, 16 June 15
All we need now is a Ethernet m4x card.
I think that you only have to connect a TTL to Ethernet module on the MiniBooster...
I like the sound of that. All these minibooster addons, mouse, network, rtc ... Will they ever exist? And would it be possible to use them at the same time. I mean symbos would benefit from all of them.
I posted this Minibooster AddOn (ESP8266) from Octoate some pages ago, which was already working:
SymbOS network support development (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/programming/symbos-network-support-development/msg96783/#msg96783)
Quote from: Prodatron on 15:36, 16 June 15
I posted this Minibooster AddOn (ESP8266) from Octoate some pages ago, which was already working:
SymbOS network support development (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/programming/symbos-network-support-development/msg96783/#msg96783)
On the pictures I see the Mother X4 with cards and I see th ESP working in ... I guess ... BASIC.
Do you have implemented it for SymbOS now? A dream comes true! :)
From my side bad news. Definitely the WZ5100 in IO port mode doesn't work well. In some way when you make some reads / writes, the counter position makes more than one jump. I'll have to redo the full project with a microcontroller in the middle, ATMEGA, or the like... The memory range mode probes to work OK at ZX Spectrum and MSX. Also SPI mode is an option, because there are a lot of cheap WZ5100 modules with SPI only interface. So If I manage the MCU to work as an I/O port to "RAM" emulation, then... I have hope :D
Also if someone wants to try with WZ5100 at the CPC we can join forces!!
Here is another video for new CPC ethernet hardware motivation :P
Crazy to see both screens like this :D
Ha. Love the zilog z80 inside logo
what about Gameboy's Webcam ? ;D
Also can't a quite standard Arduino+ethernet shield combo be used as proper network card ?
Quote from: KaosOverride on 13:54, 17 June 15
Also if someone wants to try with WZ5100 at the CPC we can join forces!!
Perhaps Bryce may have some ideas. I'd like some idea how it's going to work before I can implement emulation properly in WinAPE.
First, my apologies in advance.
I haven't read this whole thread, but even if I had I know I'll be asking stupid questions here anyway.
Is there any chance the MiniBooster can give us Internet access via bluetooth from a phone that works as a hotspot?
I have received some Arduino mini boards for misc. uses (The i2c 2x16 text display emulation for Gotek for example) and I will try to use SPI to drive the Wiznet module. There are other SPI only Wiznet modules cheaper than the direct/indirect/SPI I have.
I will try to emulate the indirect mode to SPI, and use the AVR to cache the Wiznet. So when you set the offset counter (2 x I/O ports) the AVR will read the byte, and when you try to read the data I/O port it gives you the cached value, increments the offset counter and reads next. My hope is that most of the SPI work is done while the Z80 is between operations, the same for writing, catchs the value from CPC bus and push the SPI value. With some semaphore until completing SPI comm, if Z80 tries a new I/O, the AVR will send a Wait signal.
Also if the Wait becomes a bit abusive I can change the AVR's 16Mhz quartz to 20Mhz xD
Quote from: mr_lou on 05:33, 11 July 15
Is there any chance the MiniBooster can give us Internet access via bluetooth from a phone that works as a hotspot?
Oh yes. Sure if you have PPPD at the phone's bluetooth serial port if you use the cpcip for amsdos for example (there is a Booster patched version at Amstrad.es forum). I have HC-05 module with autolink to another HC-05 at my raspberry 1 gpio port's serial link, with PPPD pending to test by me. But other users have managed to link direct serial to USB from Minibooster to a Linux PC with PPPD and make some telnet.
Also if you don't use PPPD and go more lowlevel, you need at the phone some kind of emulation of the serial to WiFi that Octoate is using. But I think it's better to use such module at the booster and WiFi link to the phone with hotspot internet sharing
On the other side, MiniBooster have SPI support but it's very generic for Wiznet module. Why? because I think will be more slow than the dedicated AVR with dedicated SPI management and cache technique. You have to set address to read/write every access instead of setting the address once and do some byte reads/writes forgetting about the address increment....
But if my AVR routines work, maybe can be implemented at the MiniBooster firmware in some way...