surfing the Internet with a CPC

[arnoldemu]

Of course. HTML is an XML sub-set, you can just create anything you like. The key is that I don't know if it's possible to make normal PC browsers to ignore a cpc tag, and that you just have to code your browser to interpret your tag as you like.

CPCWiki long pages: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Special:LongPages . There's a surprise for you at the first place!!! Not really a content page though. This would have to be http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/NC100_IO_Specification .

I'm cracking up.. I'm seeing double  (double posts)

[TFM]

... and I thought I should give up drinking 

[MacDeath]

Surfing the net? Wait for the Symbiface expansion card ;-)

Would be great but I don't even have any Symbiface...

BTW I was looking at "source code of pages like this one (the one we're at ATM...)

This is a lot of stuff actually...


A lot of stuff are obviously to be simply skipped or ignored by a CPC because it just cannot  display all those stuffs... and it may have not enough memory BTW...



Got to test/look how LYNX works.

[TFM]

Get Jareks internal 4 MB expansion, it's cheap and it's inside the 6128!

Look here:

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CPC4MB

http://8bit.yarek.pl/upgrade/cpc.cpc4mb/index.html

(Management is equal to RAM7's 2 MB expansion)

[Amstari]

Do you mean WAP-like ?
I mean ok it seems designed for mobile phones and so on, so quite limited actually, this may be ok too for a CPC perhaps.

If you want to see what this forum would look like as WAP page it can be selected at the bottom of any of the forum pages or use this link:

http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?wap2

It's just text, no graphics. I think the CPC would be capable of displaying this.

[mr_lou]

Don't worry about creating a special <cpc> tag.

Instead, look at Opera Mini for cellphones.

Any page you visit on your cellphone using Opera Mini, is actually downloaded from Opera - not from the actual website.
Opera Mini asks their own server to get that webpage, and then delivers it in a cellphone friendly format.

A CPC browser could do the same. Ask a server to convert a website into a CPC version.

[fano]

A specific format especially for the CPC would not be too difficult but that would be cool to have "simplier" apps like IRC chat before (i'd be very proud to enter in a IRC channel with a CPC client  )
I'd be interested to devellop theses type of apps but what about low level support with Hardware and its driver ? what solutions do we have ? will we have a DIY ?

[mr_lou]

Inventing a new format is no problem no, but it would be better to use a server-converter thingy.
No one will create websites using our new format.

Yes, I too have often thought about using my CPC for IRC'ing. :-) That would be neat. 

[fano]

Inventing a new format is no problem no, but it would be better to use a server-converter thingy.
No one will create websites using our new format.

For sure , that mini opera stuff is really interesting, you are true that CPC specific format would be very rare.

In France, we had specific terminal in the 80's named Minitel.There were services on Minitel to connect a CPC and download games (amcharge and others)  , we can imagine the same type of service and with the actual connection speed we can think to have "distributed" games.

But as i already said , we need hardware and low level support first before doing something else.

A stand-alone CPC Network Card (just for communicating within a LAN) has been on my list of possible projects for a long time now, but I've never got around to investigating what it would take or whether it's feasable.

This is an interesting way to process because actual modems (boxes) features ethernet connection so we have not to deal with connection details.Just have to know if it is possible (or not)

[Bryce]

I just always thought it would be cool when I went into my router settings and it said: 192.168.4.1 = Linux Laptop, 192.168.4.2 = Windows PC, 192.168.4.3 = Amstrad CPC464

Minitel wasn't just a french thing, it was available in Ireland and England and probably other countries too.

Bryce.

[MacDeath]

Minitel was mostly French but other countries got equivalent, sometimes directly base on the French technology (as in Ireland)


To have a CPC friendly dedicated server to convert all the stuff would be great and the easy way... just got to see if this would be heavy system wise (I don't think so) and the potential number of users.


Of course most Websites won't get CPC-friendly stuff...

But the CPC websites crews would be pleased to do it pehaps.



Yet we must define the Hardware solutions.
I think such a hardware solution could even be compatible with Spectrums or MSX or any Z80 based computers.

Or even 65xx computers, if proper connectic and re-program of the components are provided. But 1mhz CPU is quite...slow.

Would mostly need new connecters between the card and the Computer...
And the PIC/programable chip would need specific program for each computer.

Speccy is good enough for Text only stuff...but the display would be quite inferior as a CPC...
256x192 is not as good as 320x200... (or even 320x256...)
And 1bit graphics are somewhat...erf.

But because of its lighter graphics, the Speccy may be even quite faster.

MSX2+ on the other hand would probably out-perform all others.



If the solution can be compatible with other 8 bit computers, this may then lead to a "semi-professional" production... quite like the "DiskDrive emulator  SD Card HxC" device who works for Atari ST, Amiga, CPC and others...



Does any one of you know if you can surf the internet with a CGA PC ?

[fano]

I believed other countries had something better than this awfull thing  (French technology was the Art of State in term of personnal computer at this time , look at TO7/MO5 !)

About other machines, hardware solutions seem to exist (ethernet cartriges ?) as i seen some "web browser" on C64 and on 8bits Atari (singular browser and contiki)
That may be interesting to look at theses hardwares before reinventing the wheel 

[MacDeath]

Ok a quick search on google...


http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/classic-tech/?p=182

One of the things that usually keeps old machines from being   useful in today's world is the fact that modern necessities like   network and Internet connection are missing. Not with a 1980's Commodore   64 however. Here's how you can surf the Web with a C64.
———————————————————————————-
I've mentioned before how I wanted to try some experiments to run   some classic technology and make it viable in the twenty-first   century. My last attempt at that was when I tried to use Windows 3.1, but that wound up being a relative failure.
What usually prevents old technology from not making the grade today   is that the most basic things necessary for success in the twenty-first   century, like network and Internet connectivity, don't exist on old   machines. Obviously that's because in the 80s we didn't have such needs,   but today it all has to come as standard equipment.
This lack of basics is what makes my old Tandy 200 collect dust. I   can still do word processing and basic spreadsheets on it, but to   transfer the files, you have to use a null-modem and a serial port. No   e-mail or direct file transferring there.
However, digging around the Internet, I recently found a way to bring   at least one old dinosaur closer to the twenty-first century. The   dinosaur in question is the Commodore 64. And the way is by using a Web browser and connecting it to the Internet.
A Web browser?? For a C64?!  Yeah. That was pretty much my reaction too. But indeed there is one. Actually, surprisingly enough, there is more than one.
The first browser I found for the Commodore 64 is called Hyperlink 2.5e.   It works with both the Commodore 64 and the follow-on, the Commodore   128. Supposedly it will display JPG, GIF, and TIFF images as well as   standard HTML 1.0 forms and colors. The Web site has some screenshots showing the C64 connected to such sites as Slashdot.
To make it work, you need a device that connects to the C64's serial   port to convert Ethernet to serial communications. This is achieved   using a Lantronix USD-10.   This device has full TCP/IP support and can be administered through a   Web browser on a remote machine. There's a newer version of it called   the UDS1100, which supports speeds up to 100Mbps. It will set you back about $125 depending on where you purchase it. Another way to connect to the Internet using a C64 is by using Contiki.   Contiki is an operating system for the C64 and other machines that   allows you to get modern features such as the Internet on old 8-bit   machines. In addition to the C64, some of the other machines Contiki   supports include:

   
• Apple II
• Atari ST
• Sharp Wizard
• Sega Dreamcast
• Nintendo Gameboy

Forget simple Web browsing. Using Contiki, you can even turn your Commodore 64 into a Web server as well. The Commodore 64 Web V2.1 site claims to run on a 1982 Commodore 64.
Author's Note: I severely doubt it will take all four million TR members connecting at the same time, so don't everyone hit it at once.
Kicking the tires  I haven't had a chance to actually try surfing the Web on a C64 yet. Our poor Commodore here at TR is still recovering from surgery after its Cracking Open gallery.   However, after finding these resources, it might be worth blowing the   dust off of it and connecting up to a TV. It might be interesting to see   how TechRepublic renders on a 26-year-old computer!
   

http://www.dunkels.com/adam/tfe/

The possibility of connecting the Commodore 64 to an Ethernet local  area network has been a collective dream in the Commodore community  for decades. A C64 Ethernet adapter would make it possible to connect  the C64 directly to the Internet, making it possible to download  software, transfer data to and from the C64, play network games over  the Internet; the possibilities are endless.        With our TFE cartridge (The Final Ethernet cartridge) this is now  possible.   
TFE - The Final Ethernet    The TFE cartridge is designed around Systor Vest AS' CS8900a-based Embedded Ethernet  board. The board is mounted on a circuit board which contains a single  74LS139 chip that constitutes the glue logic between the C64 and the  Ethernet chip. More information including the full schematics and  pictures of the hardware can be found here. 
The C64 Real-Time Streaming Audio Server - tfe.c64.org       The C64 real-time streaming audio  server is an example of the kind of abilities that Ethernet brings  to the C64. We have connected an unexpanded Commodore 64 equipped with  our TFE cartridge and a standard Datasette player to the Internet. The  Commodore 64 runs a web server and a real-time streaming audio  server. The audio server is streaming real-time Internet streaming  audio sampled from the casette in the Datasette player. The audio is  sampled in 2000 Hz using the 1-bit built-in casette sampler of the  C64. More information including the full source code for the web- and  real-time streaming audio server can be found here. 
Authors    The hardware was designed and realized by Peter Eliasson  <petere@lsil.com>. The software was written by Adam Dunkels  <adam@dunkels.com>. 
History    The idea of building an Ethernet adapter for the C64 was concieved by  Peter numerous years ago, but it was not until recently that we had  the necessary competence to actually build the hardware and write the  software for this project. With Adam's uIP TCP/IP stack, we now had  what we needed for completing the TFE project.   
  Over one of the many lunches where TFE has been discussed and planned,  Peter mentioned that it would be cool to, in addition to serve web  pages, be able to play streaming audio from the C64. Although that  sounded quite unlikely at first, it turns out that it indeed was  possible to both serve web pages and run a real-time streaming audio  server.   

http://homestead.vcsweb.com/content/the-internet-for-commodore-c64128-users-a-manual

The Internet For Commodore C64/128 Users: A manual                                                      Submitted by Gaelyne on Tue, 07/01/2008 - 02:07.                     

 

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[/q]       

Tifcu Home | Ordering | Press Release | Review Comments
Table of Contents | Sample Chapter | Errata/Addendum   

The Internet for Commodore C64/128 Users,
  3rd Edition
  by Gaelyne R. Gasson
  Publisher: VideoCam Services
  ISBN: 0-9585837-0-6 


The Internet for Commodore C64/128 Users (or Tifcu for   short) is a book written specifically for C64/128 owners who want to use   their computers on the Internet. It can also be used by *ANYONE* using   *ANY* computer platform that can use a terminal program with VT100 or   ANSI emulation. 
Many other platform users (Windows, Mac, Amiga, etc.) have   learned to use Internet features such as telnet, IRC and FTP using this   book and have remarked about how much they've learned from it. We   received so much in the way of comments regarding the book that we added   a Review Comments page so you can see what others have to say about it. 
The 3rd Edition book contains 302 numbered pages and spans 18   chapters covering everything from connecting a modem to your Commodore,   finding an Internet Provider, what you can do once you're online, and   information about TCP/IP connections. It also includes an extensive   glossary, index and resource list. To see all the topics covered in the   book we've provided an online version of the Table of Contents, expanded to show subtopics. 
The Internet For Commodore C64/128 Users is in A5 format,   which means it's 5.5 inches wide by 8.5 inches high and approximately 1   inch thick. It has a PVC cover for durability and plastic comb binding.    This type of binding lets you leave the book open to the page you   require while using your computer. 
In the past, the book was packaged with Novaterm v9.6 LITE by   Nick Rossi. This was a demonstration program of the commercially   available term program. It includes ANSI and VT100 emulation, and an   easy to use configuration program. It has the latest serial drivers   (including the new Turbo232 Cartridge) for use with high speed modems.    Novaterm 9.6 can be used by both C64 and C128 users - and allows C128   users to use their familiar 80 column screen when online. 
As of 1st July 2000, we are now sending the full version of   Novaterm 9.6, as Nick Rossi has indicated to us that the program is now   freeware. The official Novaterm 9.6 (Patch C) archives are available   from: ftp://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/terms/novaterm/novaterm9.6/, and are used to create the disk bundled with the TIFCU book.
   
Below are photos of The Internet for Commodore C64/128 Users 2nd Edition in GIF87A format. To see a larger view, select the book or the link below the image. 
Commodore users can download either the image-map (book-thumbnails.gif)   of the thumbnail views, or you can select the individual links for the   larger images. For viewing the photos offline, I recommend using GoDot. The Demo files for Godot can be downloaded from http://ftp.videocam.net.au/cbm/graphics/GoDot/. C128 owners can use IPort. GoDot and IPort were available from Creative Micro Designs (CMD) and may be available from CMDRKey. 
Other viewers available include:

  geoGIF,
  GIFFY,
  GIFFY-REU,
  VGIF,
  *GDS or
  *GDSLONG
  *GDS and GDSLONG are C128 programs.
Hint: If using Lynx to view this page, press the letter "d" over the file(s) you wish to download.
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[redbox]

About other machines, hardware solutions seem to exist (ethernet cartriges ?) as i seen some "web browser" on C64 and on 8bits Atari (singular browser and contiki)
That may be interesting to look at theses hardwares before reinventing the wheel 

I was going to say exactly the same thing as I remembered my C64 fanboy friend showing me this.

[Cpcmaniaco]

On the Spectrum there is : Spectranet.

http://www.retroaccion.org/charla-spectranet-internet-para-el-zx-spectrum

http://www.retroaccion.org/taller-spectranet-tarjeta-ethernet-para-el-zx-spectrum

http://spectrum.alioth.net/doc/index.php/Main_Page

http://spectrum.alioth.net/doc/index.php/Spectranet

[MacDeath]

TThose spectrum project don't seem to be completed...
But may be Amstrad twisted or inspirationnal source.

BTW there are surely lot of stuff on the way to get a web-surfing CPC/PLUS...


Need to define a proper hardware standard and this is then a lot of software stuff...


Post edition :

Ok after a lot of brainsmoke with my brother, we decided to try this...


http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware

and this :
http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoEthernetShield

The "Ethernet shield" is an Addon for the main protoboard.

It has all the stacks needed so I would then "just" have to get this connected tyo my amstrad (Connect the extension port to the Cards I/O) and programbot the CPC and the Arduino.

This may be done in C language.


The total is about 50€uro max.

Good stuff is such proto/development board is some sort of "universal" extension... yet this would need a good amount of programing.


More infos when I get it, few weeks to be delivered.

[Cpcmaniaco]

The Spectranet is fully completed and funcional.

I see with my eyes in my house, one month ago.

He makes a little net with a spectrum and a BBC micro conected by a switch with a netbook with wifi.

Here are some photos :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245267612/in/set-72157625433513737/

On this photo you can see over the TV the switch for the net conected to the spectrum.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244669201/in/set-72157625433513737/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244659741/in/set-72157625433513737/

On this photo you can see the BBC micro playing a game load from the net, the game was on the netbook.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245264660/in/set-72157625433513737/

Dylan playing a game on the BBC micro.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244653137/in/set-72157625433513737/

another photo with the net, on the right is the netbook with WIFI.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5245271178/in/set-72157625433513737/

Dylan was configuring the net before take this photo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5244654865/in/set-72157625433513737/

All these photos from here :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/sets/72157625433513737/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/collections/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/sets/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/

[MacDeath]

Oh Hi Maniaco.
Seems you had a great time according to the photos...


Ok so it tells me that the Hardware solution may not be the more problematic...
The Software solution is the real aim...


From what I saw on Spectranet's wiki :

   
• A socket library allowing assembler and C programs to be   written. The socket library will be as close as possible to the standard   BSD socket library found on virtually any OS running today. If time   allows, also an interface to ZX BASIC. 
• A simple network file system (TNFS, Tiny Network Filesystem) designed for 8 bit systems. 
• A network filesystem browser, either triggered by the NMI button or from BASIC extensions. 

those seem like a wishlist...

Are there any webbrowser available yet ?
Of course with the humble Speccy graphic this can be quite problematic... but on a CPC too i'm afraid.


I saw no photo of a screen while surfing the web...

The BBCmicrogame : is it an online one (multiplayer) or was it just loaded from another machine (seems so).

BTW, according to my brother, using mundane proto-board (such as the one I show you in my previous post) may be simplier than to design and produce a specific card...

Those card have a lot of existing solutions (software) for a lot of stuff, yet to get it connected and working with a CPC may be more tricky.

[Charlie...]

[size=78%]Hello,[/size]
I'm new to the forum - couldn't wait for my verification to come through when I saw this topic...


Here's a thought on how to cheat:
[size=78%]-Serial connection to a 'more modern' machine, [/size]possibly[size=78%] via a UDS-10[/size]
[size=78%]-VNC Server on said 'modern' machine[/size]
-VNC Client on the CPC...

...now there's the rub - I assumed there would be a CPM VNC client out there somewhere but a quick google didn't turn up much.
Is there such a client?

If so a pretty-well boggo CPC could work as a thin client and do just about anything.

[Cpcmaniaco]

A special Twiter for Spectrum with spectranet :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12426986@N03/5246782223/in/set-72157625440031519/

An a video with the demostration of twiter client :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nIzGBAAVl4&feature=player_embedded

A Video Streaming :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooi9rpx6ECM&feature=player_embedded#!

[fano]

Very impressive !

[redbox]

A special Twiter for Spectrum with spectranet :

That is seriously cool.

I might even Tweet if I could do it from my 6128 Plus 

[MacDeath]

Could this Spectranet be Amstrad compatibe or is the extension port far too different ?

Is this card compatible with the Spectrum +2 (or +3) from amstrad ?


BTW seems the components on this spectranet card are almost the same kind as the ones on the Generic protoboard I bought...

exemple : the arduino Ethernet Shield
uses a Wiznet W5100... the same as the Spectranet.
But the Arduino Mega 2560 use a different CPLD... (ATmega2560)... yet we chose this one because it has quite a lot of connectors to match the CPC extension port...



Of course getting those on an especially designed board is better, but for me it was cheaper to get one of those generic protoboard... than to design and produce one custom one...


If other CPC users do have some Dev/Protoboards with CPLD or those kind of stuff, this may be interesting to compare their efficiency as CPC extensions.

I mean getting a proper library of special CPC-friendly stuff on a Generic and cheap one may be as good as producing a special dedicated custom one...
easier to get our hand on those... and would just need the proper custom connectors.

But of course if someone can get a cheap production, this is good too.

The main problem with the generic card I bought : it does not feature a RAM/ROM part...
But this must not be that hard to add...


Also as I quite aim mor at a PLUSnet than a CPCnet... the Cartridge port is a ROMbox on itself... just need a cannibalised ACID then. (which I have)..



Is it possible to buy one of those Spectranet card ? those look like sweet buggers...


After all I do have a Spectrum+2 (still an Amstrad after all)...




Why on PLUS ? for cosmetic reasons only...

As I aim a GUI web-browser...

=HardSprite may make it easier and better for the mouse pointer.
=Raster interrupt may make it easier for a multi-video-mode split screen user interface...
=Better Palette.
=Got to check the DMA sound possibilities for streaming music...
=Extension port plugs may be easier to find...(I ordered a few on ebay)
=Easier ROM box thx to Cartridge port.

The source code of a  basic internet page is not that big even for a CPC standard...(5-6Ko) but getting it displaying stuff with a GUI may be trickier... And getting pictures too...

I'm new to the forum - couldn't wait for my verification to come through when I saw this topic...


Here's a thought on how to cheat:
-Serial connection to a 'more modern' machine, possibly via a UDS-10
-VNC Server on said 'modern' machine
-VNC Client on the CPC...

...now there's the rub - I assumed there would be a CPM VNC client out there somewhere but a quick google didn't turn up much.
Is there such a client?

If so a pretty-well boggo CPC could work as a thin client and do just about anything.

Hi.
To simply serial-connect the CPC on a modern PC is also a good solution but...as you said this is some kind of cheat.
I have not romm on my desk to but both my CPC and My PC... and not enough power supply to switch both them on...
kidding...

But I actually targeted a more Parallel communication with my Card (thus i choosed this model with a lot of connectors) if possible as this may be a bit faster than Serial communication...

also I'm starting to learn C language and HTML stuffs...

On the other hand could Internet capabilities be simply added/implemented into a CPC emulator ?
This may be a good way to test stuffs and softwares then...

[mr_lou]

How about making a card that connects to your cellphone, and then go online via that? 

[Bryce]

My CPC-Bluetooth module should be able do that

Bryce.