Petitition for Leonie!

[Gryzor]

Sociopath: someone with a sociopathic personality; a person with an antisocial personality disorder (`psychopath' was once widely used but has now been superseded by `sociopath')

[Leonie]

My doctor told me to drink less coffee.

[TFM]

Gryzor, maybe the problem is that we can't judge by deleted postings, because - well they are deleted. I visit the forum maybe once a week and the postings I do read from Leonie are not something I find offensive. However I got the feeling you are talking about the stuff I don't see. So how should I judge?

That's what I say. If I can't read it, I can't judge. So... everybody is not guilty as long as there is no proof. (Proof for what? That depends on the country you live in ,-)

I do not think it would be wise to post a "hall of shame" of offensive posts as "proof". Thats just rude an silly. However not being transparent seems probelmatic as well. A dilemma. Right?

There is no need to do bad things to other people - especially not from an "official" person/position.

FWIW: I have been active on usenet for 15-20 years. On usenet you do have some moderated groups, but most are totally free and uncensored. While I do like the spirit of freedom, many groups are toally unreadable today and many users went away, including me. So enforcing the rules does have a benefit and comparing this with 1984 is really not approiate IMHO. Btw, TFM read the book! Much more depth than the film.

Well, I know the book. And (read my postings again) I never compared 1984 and this. Don't put wrong things in my mouth.


Edit: May somebody of you can post here a link of "the rules" you're always talking about. Are they written down at all? Or do they exist only in the ether? Who created them? And why we should submit us to them? Have these rules been voted? Is there democra(c/z)y?

Let me ask one last question: Where is the influence on that rules, governed by the people of the Wiki-Forum?
We the people should make these rules!
Nobody of us was asked ever.
So let's make a poll about the rules here or face the revolution ;-)

BTW: We ARE already in "general discussions" here.

[Gryzor]

*sigh*...

This issue has been touched upon a few times in the past.

There are no specific rules, exactly because I don't believe in setting them down. This would mean that people could continue to misbehave by sidetracking the rules, and some of the rules would not be applicant in some specific cases. So there's no meaning in them.

HOWEVER, there's one major rule: common sense

"Nobody of us was asked ever"? Are you serious? So, what you mean to say is that when we opened the wiki and the forum we should hold a conference of sorts and discuss the 'rules'? Maybe ask permission? And, say we do that, what happens when the audience and forum membership changes?

This is a process of dialectics. We see what works, and we see what doesn't, and we all comment on it and see how things are going. That's how both the wiki and the forum have evolved. But there are some instances, like with Leonie, where very basic rules are broken and the forum becomes dysfunctional. In these cases you can't rest on 'democratic' principles, just like you can't go voting when you catch a criminal in the act.

What grievances in specific do you have, and what do you not like in terms of rules? Because "bring Leonie back" is not a rule, it's an action, after all.

[ukmarkh]

* I've removed my last post as I really shouldn't have said anything. I'd prefer to just go about my own business and not get involved.

[fano]

To be honnest , i think that whole story is stupid.Nothing personnal against Leonie or anyone else but there is something i don't understand.
I don't understand this suspicion against Gryzor, that looks like roles are inverted.There was a problem , he suppressed posts , the problem continued, he banned the person who caused the problem.
afaik , as moderator , he took a decision and does not have to explain why every 5 mins.
Unlike things i rode, forum is not a democracy where everyone vote for his friend, faultive or not.Everyone who want to participate have to respect minimal rules, explicit or simple fair use and sometime someone has to do the bad job : moderating.

[Pentagon]

@fano:

101% agree, thats also my honest personal opinion. The rules are the netiquette, thats usual since 20 years and if somebody dont understand that rules a moderator has to do a decision. The decision is made and done by gryzor and i do respect it. So somebody have to decide and thats okay in my eyes.

I am also online since 1990, i had a 24/7 BBS with 3 Lines and was in Fido / GerNet and Usenet. It was more restrictive then today. There are always trolls in forums but somebody has to kick them out.

And Gryzor is the admin of that here, so i have to respect any decision. thats normal in my eyes and need no extra explanation.

But this are just my 2 cents. I respect any other opinion.

Regards
Tom

[TFM]

HOWEVER, there's one major rule: common sense

Sounds great to me. However, different people will not always have the exact same common sense, so tolerance is needed - and most often provided 

... In these cases you can't rest on 'democratic' principles, just like you can't go voting when you catch a criminal in the act.

Yes, right! But I saw no criminal act cause I'm not 24h a day in the forum, and sometimes I miss days or weeks. And if postings are deleted (there may be good reasons for...) then it doesn't become easier.

[Gryzor]

@ukmarkh: I saw your reply, and I wish you didn't edit it out as it was quite valid as an opinion. The problem is, as already noted, that indeed most people did not get to see the inappropriate posts because I like to think I'm doing a decent job moderating the boards. Leonie didn't even bother to defend himself, he just went on posting as if nothing ever happened, and this should tell you something. But indeed, it may have made me look bad:this is a cross to bear, I guess, because really I don't see any other way to run a forum.

@Fano, Pentagon: thanks mates. To tell the truth, I do feel somewhat hurt by the reaction and lack of trust from the part of some members, but I also know you can't ever please everyone and this is why I continue to discuss and try to understand and explain things...

@TFM: common sense is a much debated term and obviously cannot cover all opinions. But in this case I think we've set the common denominator quite low, allowing things to be very lax and friendly, and in any case: FUCK IT, THERE'S AN OFF-TOPIC FORUM ANYWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, had to get this out of my chest.

To recap things and try to explain my actions:

-Leonie is a male individual
-Leonie is posing as a female member
-Leonie starts flirting with members like there's no tomorrow
-The vast majority of Leonie's posts are of sexual nature
-The vast majority of Leonie's posts (especially in the english forum) are off-topic
-The vast majority of Leonie's posts are of a very low level, but that's just a personal preference. I've never deleted a post from anyone just because I found it stupid or whatever. But coupled with the other characteristics it does show a nasty trend.
-Because I've been watching Leonie from the beginning I was able to delete most of his stuff before the rest of the members ever saw it. This may make me look bad, but if we want to keep the forum on track it's the only way.
-Leonie was warned, time and again, before action was taken. He never bothered to even reply, let alone moderate his behavior.
-And, let's not forget, this is NOT the first forum Leonie has been banned from, so I'm not the only crazy one here.

Now, I've been thinking about creating a "shame" thread/forum where to move such posts to, but I rejected the idea because it's the first time we've ever had such issues. There are now almost 11000 posts (wow...), and before Leonie I had only deleted a couple of posts. This goes to show how tolerant we are.

If you can think of a better way to run a forum, please feel free to discuss.

Thanks
G

[Devilmarkus]

-Leonie is a male individual
-Leonie is posing as a female member

Did you ever see him?

[Gryzor]

Of course not. But I do have a couple of ounces of brain and have met enough women in my life to know how to tell one.

Ok, so maybe there's a chance Leonie *is* a woman, but it makes little difference, in the end.

[Edit] Come on mate, really?

[TFM]

Of course not. But I do have a couple of ounces of brain and have met enough women in my life to know how to tell one.

Ok, so maybe there's a chance Leonie *is* a woman, but it makes little difference, in the end.

[Edit] Come on mate, really?

Gryzor, that's so funny! You're flitring with Sophie in the other thread - do you really think Sophie is a girl    I promise you she is! As much as Leonie 

[Devilmarkus]

Well, that's what's missing here:
b( ° )( ° )bs
And that's why all become short sightened and see in   each new registered female user a fake

[TFM]

Well, that's what's missing here:
b( ° )( ° )bs
And that's why all become short sightened and see in   each new registered female user a fake

Don't blame me for your non satisfying flirting experience! And if you think she is a girl... let's talk about this in a couple of weeks, ok?

[Gryzor]

Gryzor, that's so funny! You're flitring with Sophie in the other thread - do you really think Sophie is a girl    I promise you she is! As much as Leonie 

Erm... I'm *flirting* with Sophie? Man, if you can spot one ounce of difference in how I talk to her compared to other new members I'll give my right arm and leg.

Man, I wouldn't want to be the centre of your attentions if I were a woman...

[Pentagon]

I will talk the last word here and then we should close this unlucky thread to look forward.

GIRLS SHOULD NOT HAVE A CPC - GIRLS SHOULD PLAY WITH BARBIE DOLLS ;-)
and fake girls deserve a ZX-80 without a datasette......

Message of the day ..... closed 


Kindly Regards
Tom


P.S: Let's look forward mates, we will find back to topic and thats the good old times on CPC. Lets do some new projects and peace for all !

[Devilmarkus]

I find one thing extremely funny:
Who started this thread?
And who changed his opinion now? 

[TFM]

Man, I wouldn't want to be the centre of your attentions if I were a woman...

Well, thinking about girls... you're not exactly what I'm usually hunting. You really talk too much ... like most of the girls. But seriously, I can read between the lines, and it was obvious to me, that you did a small flirt with Sophie - even in english. ... no need to discuss that in deep. (TFM watches the WATCHMAN hehehe.... err, just by accident).

However, there are NO girls here! There will be NO girls here. And especially if a Pseudo has some knowledge about the CPC, it CAN'T be a girl. Undestood? In 1987 only 3 girls had CPCs and they are all retired now!

Therefore I had a lot of fun with Leonie, I never did expect her to be a real girl. But - well - it looks like others did.

So take it easy, and if you wouldn't always insist to be right, it would make you a more beloved person. (Gryzor, up to now I only carry a torch for you, but you must be more nice to be really beloved).

Have a great day all together, and don't mind. This topic can't be discussed completely seriously.

[OCT]

I'll eat his liver!!! A fight for the CPC is always in gods will - disregarding the used means [...]. It's a holy mission! [...]

BTW: Never eat brains of c64 users! They are not tasty and they are very hard to find, because of their size 

OMFG, Leonism must be contagious and have crossed the man-machine barrier twice to infect TFM/FS, using threads as a carrier.
Maybe it's a seed prion, in an Ice-9 kind of way, triggering global outbreaks of Mad Forum Disease (or was it Community Collapse Disorder?)...